is it the end of 23mm tyres???

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The utility cyclist
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby The utility cyclist » 12 Oct 2018, 4:31am

Brucey wrote:I happened to have a recent Michelin 23mm tyre in my hands earlier. Writ upon the sidewall was a maximum pressure rating of 8 bar (116psi) and a minimum pressure rating of 6 bar (87 psi). The latter seems too high for light-built folk, and the former seems too low if you are erm, 'somewhat thick-set' shall we say.

Part of the trend to wider tyres is the change in the cycling demographic; there are a lot more people who are above average weight riding bikes these days.

Mass produced 'racing bikes' have weight limits that are almost double the weight of an average professional cyclist, and skinny tyres won't do more than a narrow range of rider weights, not very well, at least....

cheers

Based on what evidence, define 'very well'?
My personal anecdata says you're wrong.

The lowest weight I've been as an adult is 13st 9lb, I commuted to 6th form and at 17, 4 miles each way to college for two years as well as riding the lanes of the East Riding most weekends and a couple of Brevet Populaire's, all on 23mm tyres, this was on a Raleigh Winner and later a Falcon something or other I bought with the paper round money I'd saved.
When I bulked up a bit more in my early 20s and bought my first reasonable bike (A R501 Raleigh Record Sprint) for a 10 day/700 miles tour in France I did that on 23mm tyres.
The same bike I commuted into work with and once or twice managed over 20mph average, it was 6-7miles (mostly along country roads and a dual carriageway), not mega impressive to some but I'd say doing 'very well' on skinny tyres and a 'big' rider. I later bulked up further and still rode on 23mm tyres until about 2008/9 when I bought 25mm gatorskins for my new bike. At my max of nearly 17 stone I rode 22mm tubulars with ease, that weight was around 3 years ago.

Skinny tyres will do 'very well' and for more than a narrow range of rider weights as you seem so confident to state, the only thing holding performance back is the rider themselves, you can apply that at any rider weight on any size tyre. Narrow minded thinking on what works and what doesn't work seems to be prevalent on this forum and from the same posters repeatedly.

multitool
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby multitool » 12 Oct 2018, 5:13am

A reluctance to accept change and a deep suspicion of it is not uncommon amongst a sector of the cycling community. :wink:

It's a broad church and we can welcome all 8)

reohn2
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby reohn2 » 12 Oct 2018, 8:57am

multitool wrote:Not so sure about the theory of changing cycling demographic resulting in trend for wider tyres. There have been fat cyclists for ever. This is not a recent phenomenon.

Secondly, the lightest of cyclists, the pro riders, are predominantly riding tyres wider than 23mm, and have been doing so for several years. Wider tyres were the norm on cobbled stages and classics but they are now used for all racing, except TT. Last time I checked at least 20 World Tour teams were using 25mm tyres (or 26mm if on Spchzld).

There have been plenty of independent tests demonstrating that wider tyres are faster, when paired with wide rims.

Will this actually matter to most enthusiast riders, even if they convince themselves that it does? Possibly not, but they won't complain about the added comfort.

And at far lower pressures than some are quoting on this thread.
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Cugel
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby Cugel » 12 Oct 2018, 10:20am

reohn2 wrote:
multitool wrote:Not so sure about the theory of changing cycling demographic resulting in trend for wider tyres. There have been fat cyclists for ever. This is not a recent phenomenon.

Secondly, the lightest of cyclists, the pro riders, are predominantly riding tyres wider than 23mm, and have been doing so for several years. Wider tyres were the norm on cobbled stages and classics but they are now used for all racing, except TT. Last time I checked at least 20 World Tour teams were using 25mm tyres (or 26mm if on Spchzld).

There have been plenty of independent tests demonstrating that wider tyres are faster, when paired with wide rims.

Will this actually matter to most enthusiast riders, even if they convince themselves that it does? Possibly not, but they won't complain about the added comfort.

And at far lower pressures than some are quoting on this thread.


The U-cyclist is right, though, that one may cycle "successfully" on many kinds of tyres, since we olepharts did for decades. This is not to say that narrower tyres were better; in fact they were worse than today's fine offerings.

One's personal history of cycling will always (like all history) be "a story", not the objective and complete relation of all the "facts". There are no true stories because .... they're stories: perspectives we prefer rather than perspectives we don't.

Here's my own history of the bike tyre:

As a child I rode on some awful things that weighed a ton and had two raised strips of rubber down the middle. They were prone to puncture, losing the inner tube if pumped up too hard and with a twitch (that one got used to) when cornering off the raised bits on to the side bits. They were lethal in the wet.

Later I went through various tyres:

The new Clement "open tubulars", made like tubulars but not sewn up. These bulged and burst within a couple of hundred miles as the cotton sidewalls were not woven but stuck together with some sort of gum, which parted when shocked by a pothole or similar.

19mm wide "fast" tyres, which needed to be pumped up to 140psi and were not only serious bum-punchers but also unpredictable in the corners; and still prone to snakebite. Nor were they "fast".

Superlight Specialized things (160gms) with silk sidewalls in 21mm width. Still too hard for riding any distance and lethal in the wet as their rubber was thin (to reduce weight) but very hard (so they didn't wear out in 100 miles).

Etc.

All of them tended to be more easily damaged than modern tyres; more puncture prone; not good in the wet; too hard for long rides unless your bumble had already done the 1000 miles breaking in a Brookes saddle (i.e. you were breaking in your bumble as well as the saddle).

Today I have 28 - 32mm tyres which are light, resilient, fast, comfortable, rarely puncture (2 in 7 years and tens of thousands of miles). I suppose the modern 23mm variety have some of those characteristics but they are definitely less kind to the bum and not so sticky to the road. Some lads will prefer their 23mm because "I always ride those" and will acquire the tough bumble and more careful cornering to suit them, as once we all did.

But there is no virtue in always behaving as one did before. If we did, we'd all still be babbling babies. ...... But wait ..... I do believe I have spotted a big infant or two hereabouts! :-)

Cugel

multitool
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby multitool » 12 Oct 2018, 10:39am

I think that is the first post-modern analysis of cycle tyre postings I have ever read :D

Agree though. With all of it. I don't think anybody should start taking themself too seriously when it comes to discussing bicycle parts, nor think that they have the monopoly on wisdom and speak for all.

I'm all for progress. And there has been great progress in bicycle equipment in recent years, no matter what some may have you believe.

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100%JR
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby 100%JR » 12 Oct 2018, 12:59pm

reohn2 wrote:The pressures I posted were for 40mm(actual 37mm) Hypers,32mm Hypers would be ridden at a guess about 55f/75r with an all up weight(rider,bike and day luggage) of 98kg.I don't know what your all up weight is.

My weight is around 86kgs
The only weight on the CX bike is a small wedgie and two 500ml water bottles so I'm guessing maybe 98-100kg all in?

Funnily enough when MTBing I used to have a Camelbak with a 3ltr bladder,a tool roll,2x spare tubes,pump,spare clothing.I was 10kg heavier than now and used to run my tyres at 26F/28R :lol: I once weighed the Camelbak and with a full bladder it was over 8kg :lol:

reohn2
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby reohn2 » 12 Oct 2018, 2:07pm

100%JR wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The pressures I posted were for 40mm(actual 37mm) Hypers,32mm Hypers would be ridden at a guess about 55f/75r with an all up weight(rider,bike and day luggage) of 98kg.I don't know what your all up weight is.

My weight is around 86kgs
The only weight on the CX bike is a small wedgie and two 500ml water bottles so I'm guessing maybe 98-100kg all in?

Funnily enough when MTBing I used to have a Camelbak with a 3ltr bladder,a tool roll,2x spare tubes,pump,spare clothing.I was 10kg heavier than now and used to run my tyres at 26F/28R :lol: I once weighed the Camelbak and with a full bladder it was over 8kg :lol:

Depends on the tyre size on the MTB but on my Genesis Longitude 29er x 2.4inch 15f/25r,and I drop 5psi out of the front on really rough terrain
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100%JR
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby 100%JR » 12 Oct 2018, 2:15pm

reohn2 wrote:
100%JR wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The pressures I posted were for 40mm(actual 37mm) Hypers,32mm Hypers would be ridden at a guess about 55f/75r with an all up weight(rider,bike and day luggage) of 98kg.I don't know what your all up weight is.

My weight is around 86kgs
The only weight on the CX bike is a small wedgie and two 500ml water bottles so I'm guessing maybe 98-100kg all in?

Funnily enough when MTBing I used to have a Camelbak with a 3ltr bladder,a tool roll,2x spare tubes,pump,spare clothing.I was 10kg heavier than now and used to run my tyres at 26F/28R :lol: I once weighed the Camelbak and with a full bladder it was over 8kg :lol:

Depends on the tyre size on the MTB but on my Genesis Longitude 29er x 2.4inch 15f/25r,and I drop 5psi out of the front on really rough terrain

All MTBs were 26" and post 2010 I ran 2.35 Maxxis Minion DHF 42aF/60R on both HTs and FS.I borrowed a friends On-One 29er back in 2007(before they became fashionable) and really didn't like it.By the time 27.5(650b) were becoming the "norm" I had decided that my MTBing days were over.
If my son decides he wants to try proper MTBing then I'll build up a HT and suppose I'll have to go 27.5.

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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby reohn2 » 12 Oct 2018, 2:19pm

100%JR wrote:All MTBs were 26" and post 2010 I ran 2.35 Maxxis Minion DHF 42aF/60R on both HTs and FS.......

That's a lot of air in a big tyre :shock:
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100%JR
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby 100%JR » 12 Oct 2018, 3:07pm

reohn2 wrote:
100%JR wrote:All MTBs were 26" and post 2010 I ran 2.35 Maxxis Minion DHF 42aF/60aR on both HTs and FS.......

That's a lot of air in a big tyre :shock:

That's the tyre compound not air :wink:
42a Super-Tacky and 60a.Down Hill Front.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby The utility cyclist » 12 Oct 2018, 3:50pm

multitool wrote:A reluctance to accept change and a deep suspicion of it is not uncommon amongst a sector of the cycling community. :wink:

It's a broad church and we can welcome all 8)

It's not a broad church when some are telling you x doesn't/can't work or people taking potshots at others choices :roll:
it's not about suspicion or a reluctance to accept change, it's about being happy with what you have in some cases and as being pointed out, not needing to change because what you have works very well indeed, no matter what weight you are.
OPINIONS and the very scant 'evidence' as to what works better say, that in some very particular circumstances a wider tyre is a tiny, tiny bit quicker(which in any case ignores air resistance on the wider tyres), there's no evidence other than 'feel' as to comfort and how that effects performance during or at the end of a ride or physical fatigue post ride.

What too many people are saying is that x does not work, or does not work "very well" and then come up with zero factual evidence of that, my personal decades long 'evidence' in real world use suggested that a previous comment was incorrect as an absolute statement. Some posters make claims simply by saying it is so on a forum and repeating it ad-nausea as if that is somehow firming up their beliefs to be accepted as fact, there's maybe a link to some in lab/narrow field of testing and say 'ta-dah', then ignore other factors/circumstances, the very tiny benefit if any as well as ignoring real world use of others.
In my opinion wider tyres for many are a placebo and it wouldn't make any significant difference for most road riding on a good 23mm tyre at the correct pressures than it would on a good 25mm or a 28mm.

Are some older narrower tyres significantly worse (in all aspects) than modern tyres, absolutely, but then that should come as no surprise, in fact a fair few modern tyres aren't great comparatively (in any width). Are all narrower tyres 'worse' or lack something over all wider tyres, absolutely not and indeed that's also vice-versa.

reohn2
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby reohn2 » 12 Oct 2018, 4:07pm

100%JR wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
100%JR wrote:All MTBs were 26" and post 2010 I ran 2.35 Maxxis Minion DHF 42aF/60aR on both HTs and FS.......

That's a lot of air in a big tyre :shock:

That's the tyre compound not air :wink:
42a Super-Tacky and 60a.Down Hill Front.

Phew you had me worried there for a minute.
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reohn2
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby reohn2 » 12 Oct 2018, 4:13pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
multitool wrote:A reluctance to accept change and a deep suspicion of it is not uncommon amongst a sector of the cycling community. :wink:

It's a broad church and we can welcome all 8)

It's not a broad church when some are telling you x doesn't/can't work or people taking potshots at others choices :roll:
it's not about suspicion or a reluctance to accept change, it's about being happy with what you have in some cases and as being pointed out, not needing to change because what you have works very well indeed, no matter what weight you are.
OPINIONS and the very scant 'evidence' as to what works better say, that in some very particular circumstances a wider tyre is a tiny, tiny bit quicker(which in any case ignores air resistance on the wider tyres), there's no evidence other than 'feel' as to comfort and how that effects performance during or at the end of a ride or physical fatigue post ride.

What too many people are saying is that x does not work, or does not work "very well" and then come up with zero factual evidence of that, my personal decades long 'evidence' in real world use suggested that a previous comment was incorrect as an absolute statement. Some posters make claims simply by saying it is so on a forum and repeating it ad-nausea as if that is somehow firming up their beliefs to be accepted as fact, there's maybe a link to some in lab/narrow field of testing and say 'ta-dah', then ignore other factors/circumstances, the very tiny benefit if any as well as ignoring real world use of others.
In my opinion wider tyres for many are a placebo and it wouldn't make any significant difference for most road riding on a good 23mm tyre at the correct pressures than it would on a good 25mm or a 28mm.

Are some older narrower tyres significantly worse (in all aspects) than modern tyres, absolutely, but then that should come as no surprise, in fact a fair few modern tyres aren't great comparatively (in any width). Are all narrower tyres 'worse' or lack something over all wider tyres, absolutely not and indeed that's also vice-versa.

Some people have done their homework over a period of time and come up with different results to you,there are no absolutes only individual and differing solutions to the enjoyment of cycling.
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multitool
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby multitool » 12 Oct 2018, 6:55pm

People can ride what they want to ride without it affecting me. What I was pointing out was the dogmatic mentality that exists amongst certain cyclists with regards to anything new. It's almost as if anything invented after they were in their late thirties is 'crap'.

I've gone 25mm on my road bikes. It's a lovely compromise between grip, comfort, cornering and the razorblade feel of a 23mm. I'm not heavy.

StephenW
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Re: is it the end of 23mm tyres???

Postby StephenW » 12 Oct 2018, 10:11pm

Hello Utility Cyclist

Do you prefer a slow or a fast cadence?