Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

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NetworkMan
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Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby NetworkMan » 18 Oct 2018, 8:58pm

The rear wheel on my new Audax bike is making a tinkling sound. The wheel came from my old Dawes Audax, approx 2001, and has had little use for about 5 years. I recently did a rebuild of the Dawes, fitting new tyres and putting the bike back into use and it was at this time that the sound first appeared. I moved many of the parts over to the Spa Ti frame and the tinkling came complete with the wheel and cassette.

It is a Mavic MA3 rim with 36 PG spokes, presumably built by Dawes themselves so perhaps handbuilt but probably not stress relieved. When I freewheel there is no noise but under even modest drive there is am erratic tinkling sound from the rear. I thought the spokes might be a bit slack but the LBS thought not. In another thread concerning a similar problem Brucey thought the spoke crossings might be responsible and suggested putting small bits of card between each crossing. I did that using 1/2 inch squares of cereal packet on both drive and non-drive side but it made no difference. I read somewhere that the valve could rattle against the rim but adjusting the retaining nut and refitting the tyre and tube made no difference. In the other thread I read that metallic particles inside the rim wall could do it but surely this would make a noise all the time not just under drive.

It is perhaps significant that the noise appeared after a long period of non-use. It's hard to believe that switching from a 25mm Conti. Gatorskin to a 25 mm Schwalbe One could have anything to do with it.

Any ideas anyone? In the absence of any any more ideas I'm inclined to just leave it and see if it gets any better with time. As I'm only 60 kg I doubt that broken spokes are likely are they?

Brucey
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby Brucey » 18 Oct 2018, 9:13pm

I would check the freehub body bolt is tight. If it isn't, don't just tighten it, remove the freehub body and clean the interface between the freehub body and the hubshell first. Also check the freehub body bearings for free play. If there is any free play then the freehub body should be adjusted or replaced. If a loose freehub body bearing is making a noise, it usually won't make the same noise on every sprocket; the loadings on the bearings/pawls are different depending on which one is being used.

Another cause of noises is swarf (from manufacture) inside the rim. You may hear this under drive at low speeds whereas the noise is there but masked when freewheeling. Go faster than about 10mph and the swarf will be centrifuged against one part of the rim and the noise will be gone. The swarf can be attached firmly when the rim is new but corrosion and riding the wheel can cause it to come loose at a later date. Putting the wheel in a wheelbuilding jig and turning it slowly will cause swarf to move in the rim and make the noise, if that is the cause.

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 18 Oct 2018, 9:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby roubaixtuesday » 18 Oct 2018, 9:13pm

I once had something similar, turned out to be from the QR against the dropouts.

Probably a long shot but might be worth tightening the QR and/ or greasing the dropouts?

NetworkMan
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Location: South Devon

Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby NetworkMan » 19 Oct 2018, 10:22am

Thanks Brucey and roubaix, I can now investigate further.

peetee
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby peetee » 19 Oct 2018, 4:39pm

Long shot I admit but has the cassette lockring come loose? That might tinkle against the axle under drive but stay put when freewheeling - on a smooth road, probably.
Winter had arrived in the land of Kernow. Along with it came wet roads and cool winds.
“Oh, my wheels and coupling rods!” Peetee exclaimed.

NetworkMan
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby NetworkMan » 19 Oct 2018, 8:14pm

No joy so far.
I checked the QR for tightness but anyway this was a problem on the old Dawes steel frame as well as the present Ti one.
Took off the cassette and investigated freewheel which seemed tight with little play. Cleaned up mounting surfaces on cassette and top two sprockets, refitted and torqued up. The tinkling is far louder than the freewheel ticking which is almost inaudible so I'm sure tinkling is only happening under load and therefore can't be swarf in the rim cavity. Also checked crank bolts (a little loose after initial 50 miles or so) and chainring bolts, but it happens on both 74 BCD and 110 BCD rings anyway.

I still suspect that spokes are a bit loose. My other 130 OLN wheel was built by Spa in 2004 with strong spokes on DS and DB on NDS. The tension on the drive side (with similar spokes to the PG on the problem wheel) does seem higher when I squeeze adjacent ones together. Should I try to find an LBS with a tension meter to get a definitive answer? I think I recall Colin saying that if tension was too low the spokes could unload at the bottom and unwind with associated noise.

thirdcrank
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Oct 2018, 8:21pm

Mysterious bike noises may be coming from a different place to what the rider thinks.

Vorpal
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby Vorpal » 19 Oct 2018, 8:23pm

Spokes.
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kwackers
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby kwackers » 19 Oct 2018, 9:01pm

Every time I've had a tinkling sound it's been a broken spoke but I'm assuming the OP has gone over them...

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby Cyril Haearn » 19 Oct 2018, 9:53pm

Might be something you never thought of, there are other threads about queer noises, fascinating like a murder mystery (but no-one dies) :wink:
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Brucey
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby Brucey » 19 Oct 2018, 10:14pm

if the spokes are too tight then this wouldn't usually make a noise. If they are too slack then they are likely to rub at the crossings or where they fit in the hub. In newly built wheels the spokes untwist and make a noise if they go slack but this doesn't happen over and over again, not making a noise anyway.

Other noises can be

- the RD touching the spokes when the largest sprocket is used
- water in the hub bearings
- rim cracking
- rim eyelets moving in the rim
- loose freehub body bolt

I mentioned before about the bolt. This can be loose without creating any obvious looseness; the only way to check it is to take the hub apart and to see if the bolt (#18 below, other freehubs are similar)

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-FH-RM50-0982A.pdf

moves or not.

cheers
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cyclemad
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby cyclemad » 19 Oct 2018, 10:18pm

have you had the tyre off to check there is nothing loose inside the rim ?

Is there a loose spoke nipple?

Valve retainer ?

Im just spinning up a spare wheel now to see if I can fathom where it may be coming from ....back soon. :?

peetee
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby peetee » 19 Oct 2018, 10:58pm

I have just been working on a recumbent trike that made the same noise. The spokes seemed ok with a couple less tight than the others. I bought the two up to match the others, put a quarter turn on to them all then stress relieved them. Quiet as a mouse when that was done.
Winter had arrived in the land of Kernow. Along with it came wet roads and cool winds.
“Oh, my wheels and coupling rods!” Peetee exclaimed.

Brucey
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby Brucey » 19 Oct 2018, 11:05pm

one of the things that catches folk out is the front derailleur cable; this often pokes out and the crank hits it (making a tinkling noise) every time it goes round.

Another is that the chain can catch the side of other (larger) chainrings as you pedal. This can make a tinkling sound too.

In a similar vein if the chain is slightly wider than it should be or the sprockets have become deformed, the chain can touch the next largest sprocket; this can make a tinkling sound too.
[edit: if the freehub body bolt is loose, the whole cassette can move enough to allow the sprockets to touch a chain of the correct width, but only when the chain is under tension....]

Just to clarify, when you say 'under load', do you mean dead weight load or pedalling load?

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 20 Oct 2018, 7:53am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chris Jeggo
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Re: Tinkling sound under drive from rear wheel

Postby Chris Jeggo » 20 Oct 2018, 12:09am

I've had noises from laced spokes in an old wheel, caused by slight grooves in the spokes due to fretting where they cross. You can detect this by squeezing adjacent spokes together near their crossing to see if they move smoothly or jerkily. I would have thought that what you did with cardboard squares would have eliminated this possibility, but maybe not.