Saddle height

[531colin]

Simples?

Simple to write!

I'm surprised that you say that; I generally find it easier to do things like this than to write instructions to do it. (Try writing instructions for fitting a bike tyre....much easier to just do it!)
But theres a simple halfway house if you have a bike you are already reasonably comfortable on. Just make a mental note of the degree of pedalling effort which gives you a "neutral balance", that is no weight on your hands and also not pulling on the hoods/bars. If its a bike for long lazy days, then I like my "neutral balance" point to be "not working very hard at all". If it was a bike for fast riding and big efforts, I would want "neutral balance" to be at reasonably high level of effort.....except I'm too old to ride like that now!

[Samuel D]

Meanwhile I changed my saddle to a San Marco Regal. Before I did that, I checked the height of the old one with a metre rule: 75 cm to top of saddle in line with seat tube. So that’s what it was in the video. Not sure how it creeped up that high (from 73 cm with the Cambium in the other thread).

I put the new saddle down to 74 cm. That felt low on a ride yesterday with my winter shoes that are the ones that bite into my ankles. This saddle may sag more under my weight than the Specialized Power.

Looking at my first few pedal strokes in the video at 3:30, where you can sort of see me from the side, I’m not sure my knee isn’t extended enough. I think – from the video and my own feeling on the bicycle – that the lower my torso gets (as around 5:00 in the video) and the higher my cadence gets, the more I point my toes. This is why I wonder if tight hamstrings are to blame.

The stretching started today.

[Samuel D]

If its a bike for long lazy days, then I like my "neutral balance" point to be "not working very hard at all". If it was a bike for fast riding and big efforts, I would want "neutral balance" to be at reasonably high level of effort.....except I'm too old to ride like that now!

It helps that we usually lower our torsos when riding hard, so more weight is thrown forward to balance the harder pressure on the forward pedal. In this way, the same bicycle can be tolerable for both easy and hard riding.

[Bmblbzzz]

The same saddle height does feel different depending on shoes and legwear. Civilian shoes make it feel a bit too low, as they have thicker soles, but civilian trousers might counteract this due to lack of padding. IME the shoe sole effect is probably greater, for my shoes and trousers at least.

[Bmblbzzz]

Simples?

Simple to write!

I'm surprised that you say that; I generally find it easier to do things like this than to write instructions to do it. (Try writing instructions for fitting a bike tyre....much easier to just do it!)
But theres a simple halfway house if you have a bike you are already reasonably comfortable on. Just make a mental note of the degree of pedalling effort which gives you a "neutral balance", that is no weight on your hands and also not pulling on the hoods/bars. If its a bike for long lazy days, then I like my "neutral balance" point to be "not working very hard at all". If it was a bike for fast riding and big efforts, I would want "neutral balance" to be at reasonably high level of effort.....except I'm too old to ride like that now!

Thanks.

[Samuel D]

Civilian shoes make it feel a bit too low, as they have thicker soles, but civilian trousers might counteract this due to lack of padding.

So surely both the lack of trouser padding and thicker soles make the saddle feel lower.

My shoe problem is another one: my Northwave Flash TH shoes don’t have a conventional tongue (or laces) and so dig into the shin / front of ankle / top of foot when I bend my foot upward at the ankle. A higher saddle points the foot more downward and solves that discomfort.

I wonder what comfort problem Froome was solving by lowering his saddle. Saddle comfort, at a guess. Certainly my bottom feels more comfortable if I’m not rocking around to reach the pedals.

[PT1029]

Re the 1.07 X inside leg.
Years ago (probably early 1980's) I read Loughborough University came up with a figure of 1.09 X inside leg as the most efficient height setting.
I adopted this which was fine. I probably still use that, but with numerous height adjustments for replacing shoes with thicker/thinner soles, and taller/less tall saddles, I may/may not have wandered off this a little (I did a check at some point and put the seat up 1cm, so you never can be too sure!).

[Ontherivet77]

I started off using the Lemond method which is 0.883 x inside leg for crank to seat length, this puts you in the same area as the 1.09 measurement really. However, over the years I have increased the saddle height by 4cm on my tourer and 5cm on my road bike, so there seems to be a lot scope for 'experimentation". This increase in height on my road bike seemed initially to alleviate a lot of pressure on my knees when doing longer distances. I'm probably at the absolute limit now to where I can go height wise.

Irrespective of the different methods the whole thing should be dictated by comfort and if you are comfortable then I suggest leaving well alone.

[Bmblbzzz]

Civilian shoes make it feel a bit too low, as they have thicker soles, but civilian trousers might counteract this due to lack of padding.

So surely both the lack of trouser padding and thicker soles make the saddle feel lower.

Ummm... yes. I was mixing myself up.

My shoe problem is another one: my Northwave Flash TH shoes don’t have a conventional tongue (or laces) and so dig into the shin / front of ankle / top of foot when I bend my foot upward at the ankle. A higher saddle points the foot more downward and solves that discomfort.

I wonder what comfort problem Froome was solving by lowering his saddle. Saddle comfort, at a guess. Certainly my bottom feels more comfortable if I’m not rocking around to reach the pedals.

Don't know how to solve your shoe problem other than selling the shoes and getting some that are more comfortable!

[531colin]

……….. I think – from the video and my own feeling on the bicycle – that the lower my torso gets (as around 5:00 in the video) and the higher my cadence gets, the more I point my toes. ............

And, probably, the further forward you sit on the saddle.
There is an old (Yorkshire) saying about a cyclist being "on t'rivet" .....the translation is that the cyclist isn't just sitting on the (nose) rivet of their (leather) saddle, but is also at their physical limit.

[531colin]

I started off using the Lemond method which is 0.883 x inside leg for crank to seat length, this puts you in the same area as the 1.09 measurement really. However, over the years I have increased the saddle height by 4cm on my tourer and 5cm on my road bike, so there seems to be a lot scope for 'experimentation". This increase in height on my road bike seemed initially to alleviate a lot of pressure on my knees when doing longer distances. I'm probably at the absolute limit now to where I can go height wise.

Irrespective of the different methods the whole thing should be dictated by comfort and if you are comfortable then I suggest leaving well alone.

Just realised my previous post refers to your forum name!
I'm an inveterate tinkerer with my riding position. Its time to get out the winter bike(s) in Yorkshire, and over the last week or so I have put the winter bike saddle up perhaps 8mm. because it was different to the summer bike. (I don't know why....can a Gilles Berthoud saddle sag 8mm in its first year of use?) To me, 8mm is a large change in saddle height on one of my bikes, and I checked and re-checked before I committed...even then it was 5mm to start with, then another few mm when it still felt low compared to the previous bike.
I cannot imagine changing the saddle height 40 or 50mm.
When changing from summer shoes to winter boots, I'm driven to put the saddle up about 3mm. I'm convinced this is a serious case of the "Princess and the pea" delusion, but I can't stop doing it!

[yostumpy]

I know what you mean about tinkering Colin, I'm the worlds worst for seat fettling. As an aside, which GB saddle do you have? Aspin? you must like them. I have a Spa Nidd, 5+ years now, and , well I'm considering an Aspin. I used to have a Brooks B17, then it sagged, hammock'd, and as my bars are 2" lower than the saddle, it wasn't comfy. Then the Nidd was great, it didn't sag because of the nylon underneath, BUT it doesn't 'dimple' either, so never gets any better. Still get that nose up, or slide down feeling. I have heard good reviews of the Aspin, and a 'flat' saddle might make setting saddle height easier.

[531colin]

I just found out that Cinelli have re-introduced the Unica Nitor saddles like I had in the sixties.....I must have one!
I liked and I'm still looking for the rounded profile of the saddle seen from the back, but with full sides, not cutaway.
The Aspin is OK, but the sides are too cutaway for me, I think it encourages them to lose shape. I've laced mine already.
I have several old (pre-mad cow disease) Brooks B17 narrow, and I bend the cantle plates to be more rounded.
Spa's Wharfe is nicely rounded, I like that part of it, but very cutaway sides can chafe, I find.
The Wharfe Deluxe maybe should suit me, but I haven't tried it.
The plastic of the old Unica saddles used to fatigue and split, so that they would bite your bum, which was a surprise if you didn't know!

[yostumpy]

just as a slight update, and bearing in mind comments from SamuelD, and Colin531, I got to thinking about this. I had noticed knee pain, rear/side of right knee, then I realised that my saddle was actually too high.. , so I lowered it approx 5mm ( in 2 goes) , but anticipating altering the stem, I removed the spacers, and fitted a locking spacer, so as not to keep faffing about with the headset taughtness. The locking spacer is 2mm less in height than the std washer. Any way went for a spin , seat 5mm lower, bar 2mm lower, and bingo!! I'm spinning a slightly higher gear, because I feel I can now, and the bike feels faster. I've put away my allen key, and told myself not to touch!!. I Know most will say, ''you will not notice such a small difference' but I can, and its a blessing. I also now feel like I am sitting ON the saddle, as opposed to using the cantle plate at the rear, as a 'bum stop', also I found if I hold my stomach in a tad , it tends to rotate my pelvis , so I'm not laying down so much. well thats the feeling anyway.Thanks all or your input, especially the two mentioned above. happy days!

[fastpedaller]

I Know most will say, ''you will not notice such a small difference' but I can, and its a blessing.

I won't say that...... It is clear that it will make a difference. If 5mm doesn't make a difference, would 10mm?
Clearly if 10mm would,(and I think everyone would agree on that) then 5mm would make half the difference.