Mudguards

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reohn2
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Re: Mudguards

Postby reohn2 » 8 Nov 2018, 1:40pm

Debs wrote:
Hold your horses - i'm not criticising the merits of having full mudguards - only the present design offerings, the time it takes to remove/put back on, and general practicality of fitment, often not having enough clearance between mudguard & tyre, and not integrating well with modern bicycle frames, or disc callipers, plus modern bikes generally seem to be becoming less tolerant of good design mudguard fitment.

I beg to differ,I find the present market offerings from the many manufacturers range from barely adequate(raceblades and some MTB offerings) to very good indeed such as SKS/Bluemels and a couple of others.
IMO the problems lie with tight clearance psuedo racing bikes built for impractical purposes and suspension systems on MTB's.

And it has to be said; full mudguard do get in the way at bike cleaning time, it would be appropriate to be able to have better designed mudguards that are purposely made to fit the frame with perfection, and have a easy quick release method, and very quick easy quick to put back on again :D

I've never yet felt the need to remove mudguards from any of my bikes to clean either the bike or the mudguards and I'm a bit particular on cleaning,nor ever felt a need for a quick release method of removing them as they stay on year round.
If I lived in California or southern europe I may have a different attitude but not in the UK.

Do I need to mention that all my bikes have mudguards with good effective mudflaps,or mention that I right rough stuff and MTB singletrack for the majority of my cycling :D :wink: .
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Debs
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Re: Mudguards

Postby Debs » 9 Nov 2018, 3:37pm

The photos below show mudguard room of Bluemels 35mm vs 45mm and both adjacent to 28mm Continental 4 season tyres:

Image
The plastic used is approximately 2mm thick.
The internal 'A' measurement of the 45mm is actually 43mm
The internal 'A' Measurement of the 35mm is actually 35mm
So they are really 8mm difference [although this looks larger]

Image
SKS Bluemels 45mm

The 45mm Bluemels are very generous with 28mm tyres, and has the option to fit larger tyres.


Image
SKS Bluemels 35mm

The 35mm Bluemels are a more snug aerodynamic fit with 28mm tyres.

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Cugel
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Re: Mudguards

Postby Cugel » 9 Nov 2018, 4:52pm

It's the 45mm for moi as they do allow more room for the tyre and press against the frame a bit where they pass through fork and stays, which keeps the rattle at bay. It's best to put a bit of thin tape on the potential rub points. I did have to taper the rear end of the rear guard where it connects to the retaining bolt near the BB but otherwise they're a good fit in a disc Trek Domane.

Those 35mm guards on your bike will not be "more aerodynamic". Apparently a mudguard's slipperiness through the air depends on it's front profile, not it's width. If the front end of the front mudguard is un-lipped but also long enough to point slightly down, it will be more aerodynamic than a mudguard with a fat lip on the front that points slightly up. The latter both disturbs the air hitting it and catches it under the guard, instead of making it flow over the guard undisturbed.

Of course, I haven't tested this in my own wind tunnel as I haven't got one. :-)

But aerodynamic on a geet booted winter bike is perhaps not all that relevant.

Cugel

julianm
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Joined: 6 Jun 2011, 8:13pm

Re: Mudguards

Postby julianm » 9 Nov 2018, 5:01pm

Rosebikes do the SKS range at a good price - the Stingrays would be under £30 posted.

elPedro666
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Re: Mudguards

Postby elPedro666 » 9 Nov 2018, 5:05pm

Debs wrote:If i were a bicycle manufacturer [ or bicycle designer ] i'd develop a frame that is purpose made to accept [and come supplied with] a full mudguard set that can be easily unclipped from the bike in seconds to to be cleaned, then the bike cleaned without the mudguards in the way, and then the nice clean mudguards very easily refitted in a few seconds back on the nice clean bike :D



If you designed bikes Debs, I might well buy one!

I did once have a set of I think Topeak, which clipped to a little bracket which wedged into the underside of the fork steerer. Definitely not the same coverage as a proper 'guard but was useful for suspension forks and suchlike.

On the commuters I'll fit the widest' guards which will fit between the stays but most importantly I swear by the wonderful rawmudflap.uk to keep my toes clean and dry! ImageImageImage

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

gbnz
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Re: Mudguards

Postby gbnz » 6 Jan 2019, 4:30pm

reohn2 wrote:If I could find falt with SKS' it's the flimsyness of their stay bridges which would be better if thicker and after a while the rivets become loose and need replacing with SS dome headed bolts.


Wondered if anyone else had commented on how flimsy they are. Had to replace my front mudguard and purchased SKS Bluemels. Flimsy and rattles non stop, nothing seems to stop it, originally throught I may have fitted them poorly (NB. 99 miles and various adjustments prove to my satisfaction that it's due to their flimsy nature - Didn't have a problem in 10 years with Tortec mudguards fitted).

Considering reinforcing the flimsy construction, perhaps with bit's of plastic pot pots superglued onto the structure
Last edited by gbnz on 7 Jan 2019, 9:58am, edited 1 time in total.

Brucey
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Re: Mudguards

Postby Brucey » 6 Jan 2019, 5:09pm

some flimsy/flexy mudguards (eg the crud ones) come with self-adhesive patches (of stuff that looks like the fluffy half of Velcro) which you are meant to attach to the mudguard wherever it might touch the frame etc. The greatly lessens any rattling.

cheers
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gbnz
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Re: Mudguards

Postby gbnz » 7 Jan 2019, 9:56am

Brucey wrote:some flimsy/flexy mudguards (eg the crud ones) come with self-adhesive patches (of stuff that looks like the fluffy half of Velcro) which you are meant to attach to the mudguard wherever it might touch the frame etc. The greatly lessens any rattling.

cheers


Thanks, the problem with the Bluemels is that they're so flexible there's not a great deal they won't bang into at some stage. Of equal concern is the likelihood that they'll snap at some stage, having bent themselves in two and wrapped themselves around the tyre, fork, lamp post, passing car or whatever.

Wilkinsons £1 mini tube of superglue will save the day again, though I need to find a robust black plant pot from somewhere

reohn2
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Re: Mudguards

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jan 2019, 10:45am

gbnz wrote:
reohn2 wrote:If I could find falt with SKS' it's the flimsyness of their stay bridges which would be better if thicker and after a while the rivets become loose and need replacing with SS dome headed bolts.


Wondered if anyone else had commented on how flimsy they are. Had to replace my front mudguard and purchased SKS Bluemels. Flimsy and rattles non stop, nothing seems to stop it, originally throught I may have fitted them poorly (NB. 99 miles and various adjustments prove to my satisfaction that it's due to their flimsy nature - Didn't have a problem in 10 years with Tortec mudguards fitted).

Considering reinforcing the flimsy construction, perhaps with bit's of plastic pot pots superglued onto the structure

I don't get any rattles with mine(3 bikes with 700C wheels and two with 406 wheels)other than one of the 700C/29er which has safety breakaway clips on the rear which do rattle occasionally on a really rough track.
Do yours have one,or two sets of stays per guard?
Rattles should be traceable and able to be solved quite easily.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Mudguards

Postby Bmblbzzz » 7 Jan 2019, 11:06am

Cugel wrote:Here's another of them Jan Heine blogs in which he explains why the mudguards he flogs are better than anyone else's. Them Yanks do push their products, eh? But the blog nevertheless contains some interesting points about mudguards.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/10/ ... nder-news/

Cugel

Interesting that he recommends at least 20mm of clearance between tyre and mudguard. That's far more than the commonly recommended 10mm, let alone the minimum standard from (I forget which body) of 4mm.
We’ve researched this, and here is what we’ve found: If you have the recommended 20+ mm clearance between tire and fender, objects that are small enough to be picked up with great force will go through the fender without causing any harm. Large objects have too much inertia to accelerate to a speed that allows them to do much damage.

I presume "go through the fender without causing any harm" means go through the space between tyre and guard without jamming or rubbing, rather than punch a hole in the mudguard!

Brucey
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Re: Mudguards

Postby Brucey » 7 Jan 2019, 11:23am

gbnz wrote:
Thanks, the problem with the Bluemels is that they're so flexible there's not a great deal they won't bang into at some stage....


This might sounds like a mad thing to ask but is your frame straight? The reason I ask this is that normally the mudguards are rattled in a vertical plane. However if the bike isn't perfectly in track/upright in use then the mudguards will tend also to rattle from side to side and this is a lot more troublesome.

Things that cause the bike not to be upright and mudguards to rattle from side to side include

- forks out of track (sideways)
- frame out of track (laterally or the head tube not paralell to the seat tube)
- lopsided weighting (eg one pannier or rider sitting to one side)
- wheels incorrectly dished

Clues that this might be the case include that you are not looking straight down the forks when riding, or that your tyre tracks are not quite in line with one another. It is not at all unusual for bikes/frames to be a bit out of track.

If the stays are not equally well-mounted each side this can also cause mudguards to flex from side to side. This is commonly found on bikes with disc brakes, if the stays are differently mounted each side.

cheers
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amediasatex
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Re: Mudguards

Postby amediasatex » 7 Jan 2019, 12:00pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
Interesting that he recommends at least 20mm of clearance between tyre and mudguard. That's far more than the commonly recommended 10mm, let alone the minimum standard from (I forget which body) of 4mm.



Taken in context it's not surprising, Jan's preferences are a result of his riding (as is the case for most of us!), which includes a lot of un-metalled and gravel roads, with occasional dirt, it's prudent to have a bit more clearance for this kind of riding in my opinion, for pure road/tarmac use you can get away with closer clearances.

reohn2
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Re: Mudguards

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jan 2019, 9:15pm

amediasatex wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:
Interesting that he recommends at least 20mm of clearance between tyre and mudguard. That's far more than the commonly recommended 10mm, let alone the minimum standard from (I forget which body) of 4mm.



Taken in context it's not surprising, Jan's preferences are a result of his riding (as is the case for most of us!), which includes a lot of un-metalled and gravel roads, with occasional dirt, it's prudent to have a bit more clearance for this kind of riding in my opinion, for pure road/tarmac use you can get away with closer clearances.

I agree.
Though I can remember years ago on an Audax type bike I owned with about 10 to12mm clearance and 28mm tyres with 35mm SKS guards,riding on muddy lane when so much mud was picked up between guard and tyre the front wheel almost locked up.I had take out both wheels and clean the mudguards out with grass folded in a loop it as so sticky.
Nowadays with type of riding I do,I prefer to see daylight between guard and tyre when viewed from the side if I can get it.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Mudguards

Postby Bmblbzzz » 7 Jan 2019, 11:13pm

I think many of us have had that experience. :(

Debs
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Re: Mudguards

Postby Debs » 8 Jan 2019, 1:25pm

reohn2 wrote:Though I can remember years ago on an Audax type bike I owned with about 10 to12mm clearance and 28mm tyres with 35mm SKS guards,riding on muddy lane when so much mud was picked up between guard and tyre the front wheel almost locked up.I had take out both wheels and clean the mudguards out with grass folded in a loop it as so sticky.
Nowadays with type of riding I do,I prefer to see daylight between guard and tyre when viewed from the side if I can get it.


But it boils down to the need of a purpose made frame, one that has appropriate clearance under the folk crown, and enough toe clearance for your feet, and on the rear seat stays a bridge that is attached high enough to avoid the pinch point [where the calliper brake pivot bolt goes if one doesn't have disc brakes]. Road frames like that tend to be rare these days...