Zipp 202's

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paxterg
Posts: 3
Joined: 15 Nov 2018, 6:58pm

Zipp 202's

Post by paxterg »

I have a set of these with the 77/177 hubs, great set of wheels... however the bearings in the freehub need replaced again! I replaced them in May, now I have done probably a few thousand miles on them. My mechanic tell me there is no seal on them so the water and grit can get in very easy. Is this normal for a set of these wheels, the summer weather was pretty good so not much water or grit could have penetrated them. Any advise or other peoples' experiences would be greatly appreciated!!
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by thelawnet »

Apparently the bearings ('HUX' brand) are cheap generic rubbish and the hub design is also poor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0_lfSQUXQ&t=208

There are a selection of videos here on maintaining/replacing the bearings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUxfcOWkdp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1l_HDnWBis

Bearing references here

https://www.hambini.com/technical-suppo ... rence.html

You need the 2 rubber sealed type.

E.g. https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p2000 ... _info.html

https://www.hambini.com/bearings/fag-68 ... -seal.html
Brucey
Posts: 44513
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Brucey »

a very common problem with cartridge bearing hubs is that there is a mismatch between the way the hub parts are machined and the tolerances to which the bearings are made. This quite often means that the bearings have an 'uncontrolled preload' once installed. The net result of this is often that new bearings feel OK but should the bearing surfaces degrade even slightly, the bearings instantly feel incredibly rough. I have had to grind up to 30um from the OD of bearings before now, to reduce the preload and make them run smoothly.

If the bearings don't have seals, then you have the wrong bearings fitted unless you plan only to use the wheels in entirely dry conditions....( in the UK...? .... :shock: )

The third leg of this wobbly stool of dreadful bearings concerns lubrication; most cartridge bearings come with the wrong amount of the wrong kind of grease; typically the fill amount is small and the grease is designed for dry conditions and several thousand RPM. Not like a bicycle then; the reason they are like this is that this is the specification that allows the purchase of fully commoditised (i.e. cheap) bearings.

If you want the assembly to last acceptably well, it is a good idea to remove the seals from one side of each bearing and to add plenty of semi-fluid grease to the cavity between each pair of bearings. The SFG keeps the seal lips wetted and this prevents both seal wear and water ingress.

In a typical rear hub this means that there is one pair of bearings in the hubshell and another pair in the freewheel(freehub) body. Each pair should be treated in the same way. Typically there is a third cavity in which the freewheel pawls sit. This is least well sealed (so it is appropriate for the bearing sides facing this cavity to be sealed) and a small amount of SFG here will keep the pawls happy.

Cheaply made hubs with cartridge bearings are almost certainly going to fail over and over again in the same way for some or all of the above reasons; all-weather users commonly report that new bearings are required every year (or sooner). Even posher cartridge bearing hubs are not immune to such problems. Ironic really; if set up with the correct preload and lubricant, the bearings ought usually to last many tens of thousands of miles....

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by thelawnet »

Brucey wrote:Cheaply made hubs with cartridge bearings are almost certainly going to fail over and over again in the same way for some or all of the above reasons; all-weather users commonly report that new bearings are required every year (or sooner). Even posher cartridge bearing hubs are not immune to such problems. Ironic really; if set up with the correct preload and lubricant, the bearings ought usually to last many tens of thousands of miles....


There is no preload adjustment on these particular hubs. Design feature, apparently.
Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Brucey »

the 'preload adjustment' is to make sure that the bearings are correctly toleranced for the housings they are fitted to.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by thelawnet »

Brucey wrote:the 'preload adjustment' is to make sure that the bearings are correctly toleranced for the housings they are fitted to.

cheers


It was removed from the hub design is what I'm saying.

Previous design (88/188):

Image
Image

Newer design (77/177)

Image

All of Zipp’s spoked wheels will receive a new hub set. Called 77/177, the biggest update is the move away from user-adjustable and to factory-set bearing preload. Bearing issues were the number one trouble area of the adjustable hubs, in part because misadjusted preload (too loose or too tight) will prematurely wear and damage bearings. So for Zipp, the preload is at the factory and that is that (hopefully).
Brucey
Posts: 44513
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Brucey »

yes, there is no 'adjuster'.... but what I am saying is (like most things with cartridge bearings in them in fact) that the bearings ought to be selected for the correct tolerance to go into the hubs in order to achieve the correct preload. See my earlier post.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Gattonero
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Location: London

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Gattonero »

The short-lived bearings in Zipp wheels is something that is well known.

To be fair, those should be considered "race day only" wheels, so don't expect to last 10k miles without servicing because if not the hub it will be the spokes to fail.
I've replaced countless bearings on those wheels. All of them, from the old models to the newer ones. They all fail, even the newer ones with bigger bearings, and the problem is not just contamination (which will happen in ALL hubs if ridden in rain and not looked after) but ought to be the overall design more than just "wrong tolerance".
For comparison, those Mavic road wheels use a design with a common #6001 bearing on the Lh and two small bearings on the Rh, and all of them will last many seasons with no need to replace or special maintenance aside from cleaning.

My advice is to get rid of them, get a set of Campagnolo Bora 35 and live happy :D
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...
paxterg
Posts: 3
Joined: 15 Nov 2018, 6:58pm

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by paxterg »

Food for thought, thanks for the replies. A set of Mavic Comete Pro Carbon SL UST clinchers came with my new bike. I was gonna flog em and stick with the Zipps, not so sure now. Has anyone any experience with these Mavics?
Brucey
Posts: 44513
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Brucey »

if you are going to stick lots of miles on any set of wheels, you should expect to have to repair them when they need it. Obviously you can only repair them if you can get spare parts and it is only sensible to repair them if it is also economic to do so. If you can't buy spare parts at all, you have to throw them away.

Thus for the hard miles, a set of wheels for which I can buy replacement rims is a sensible choice. Needless to say the, uh, 'benefits' of various fancy wheelsets are either undetectable or non-existent when you are riding in darkness and foul weather, leave alone the rest of the time.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Des49
Posts: 799
Joined: 2 Dec 2014, 11:45am

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Des49 »

I brought a pair of 202 wheels 14 months ago. Unlike paxterg mine have just done a few hundred miles in that time not a few thousand miles in just a few months. They are just for special events only.

As already mentioned above these sorts of wheels are not really meant for bulk miles in all weather. I built up an Al DT Swiss rimmed pair of wheels on Ultegra hubs for training and wet races, at least these hubs can be properly adjusted and regreased as needed.

Mavic wheels do seem to have long lasting bearings, but unfortunately seem to often have proprietary spokes that seem hard to find if replacements are needed.
Des49
Posts: 799
Joined: 2 Dec 2014, 11:45am

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Des49 »

Meant to add that even though my Zipp 202 bearings feel fine after a few hundred miles (as they should)! - I am less happy with the cassette sprockets digging into the freehub so much that changing a cassette becomes a very awkward and time consuming job. I have pulled the freehub off the wheel on occasion by accident and have had to file the burrs off the body. Just how much weight is saved by not using steel for the freehub, I certainly would value reliability over a few grams here.
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by thelawnet »

Des49 wrote:Meant to add that even though my Zipp 202 bearings feel fine after a few hundred miles (as they should)! - I am less happy with the cassette sprockets digging into the freehub so much that changing a cassette becomes a very awkward and time consuming job. I have pulled the freehub off the wheel on occasion by accident and have had to file the burrs off the body. Just how much weight is saved by not using steel for the freehub, I certainly would value reliability over a few grams here.


The Hope freehub bodies are 80g in alu and 148g in steel, so something around 70 grams I suppose
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Gattonero
Posts: 3730
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Location: London

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Gattonero »

Des49 wrote:Meant to add that even though my Zipp 202 bearings feel fine after a few hundred miles (as they should)! - I am less happy with the cassette sprockets digging into the freehub so much that changing a cassette becomes a very awkward and time consuming job. I have pulled the freehub off the wheel on occasion by accident and have had to file the burrs off the body. Just how much weight is saved by not using steel for the freehub, I certainly would value reliability over a few grams here.


The only other way is to make them in titanium, White Industries does so (by machining) and Shimano too (by casting), at a price...
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...
Brucey
Posts: 44513
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Zipp 202's

Post by Brucey »

some aluminium freehub bodies come with reinforced splines, eg the ambrosio/novatec 'anti-bite guard' (ABG). 'Tis often expensive though.

Image

This 'prime' branded one is cheap (about £25) and made the same way but goodness knows if it fits many other hubs besides the one that it is intended for

Image

BTW Hope used to make Ti freehub bodies, but I don't think they do any more.

cheers
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