Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

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PH
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby PH » 17 Nov 2018, 10:37pm

garibaldi wrote:seeing 99% of my riding will be on tarmac I don't see the need to go over 28mm tyres.

In that case you can disregard most of what I wrote, I don't regret writing it, IMO they are things worth considering.
Though the 28s may have to be 25s on either bike and tarmac has been a bit scarce on some of the Audax I've done this year :wink:
Looking at Spa's ever growing product line, have you considered the Aubisque? Seems to be a disc braked Audax with some tube manipulation, I've never seen one but if you're heading that way anyway it might be worth a ride.

garibaldi
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby garibaldi » 18 Nov 2018, 1:06am

De Sisti wrote:
jerg wrote:
What gearing would you want/need? One of the standard Spa Ti Audax versions comes with a 105 triple, and presumably that would similarly be an option for the Fratello. Would the 30t inner of the Shimano triple be small enough for your requirements/preferences? I seem to recall past threads on here where people have wanted to reduce the gearing below what is possible/practical with a standard Shimano triple


Spa do a nice 26T chain ring which can replace the 30T inner ring on a 105 triple. I'm running 26/39/50 with no problems.

Spa Audax with custom Stronglight chainset (46/34/24).

Image


Very nice! :wink:

garibaldi
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby garibaldi » 18 Nov 2018, 1:36am

PH wrote:
garibaldi wrote:seeing 99% of my riding will be on tarmac I don't see the need to go over 28mm tyres.

In that case you can disregard most of what I wrote, I don't regret writing it, IMO they are things worth considering.
Though the 28s may have to be 25s on either bike and tarmac has been a bit scarce on some of the Audax I've done this year :wink:
Looking at Spa's ever growing product line, have you considered the Aubisque? Seems to be a disc braked Audax with some tube manipulation, I've never seen one but if you're heading that way anyway it might be worth a ride.


Having the option of bigger clearances and wider tyres is definitely something worth considering and thanks for bringing it up. I know I don't want a full on touring bike but will keep an eye out for any "adventure bikes" that might meet my needs and budget.

There isn't a great deal on the Aubisque out there and I wasn't particularly keen on disc brakes last time a visited Spa. I have since started to appreciate the benefits of discs a bit more and so take the Aubisque for a spin next time I'm in Harrogate!

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Gattonero
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby Gattonero » 18 Nov 2018, 11:21am

garibaldi wrote:
Brucey wrote:if it comes down to a coin toss, I'd probably take whichever one offered the best mudguard clearances for my particular intended use.

cheers


There doesn't seem to be much difference in mudguard clearances either. Both claim 28mm tyres with full mudguards and that would be enough for me. However, I've heard reports of the Spa having too tight clearances with this set-up which can be a problem on muddy lanes (not sure if design has been update since). Haven't heard of such problems on the Condor but that's not to say they don't exist.

Thanks


Think about the tyre&rim combo as well, for example a 28mm Marathon Plus is quite tall and actually 30mm wide even on 20-21mm rims, so it may rub inside the mudguard on frames that are known to have clearance for 28mm. Same for a normal 28mm tyre (say, a Gatorskin) on a wide-ish rim like the H+Son Archetype or a similar 23mm rim, you're close to a 30mm wide tyre and may leave very little clearance with the chainstays or forks.
I can tell you that on my Fratello (25mm GP4season or Gran Prix GT 25mm on Open Pro's) I won't go over a true 28mm size, just to avoid the nuisance of fallen leaves always rubbing.

To be fair, I don't expect a bike with a road geometry and made for them components, to have a massive clearance: the rear end length and the narrow chainset from road groupsets, those are the limits. There's only so much you can manipulate the chainstays, the more you squash them -to leave more room for the tyres- the more you lose in mechanical properties. I'm happy to see that on my Fratello they haven't altered the former oval section of the chainstays.
There's about 6mm each side with Gran Prix 25mm on Open Pro's
Image
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

garibaldi
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby garibaldi » 18 Nov 2018, 3:12pm

Gattonero wrote:
garibaldi wrote:
Brucey wrote:if it comes down to a coin toss, I'd probably take whichever one offered the best mudguard clearances for my particular intended use.

cheers


There doesn't seem to be much difference in mudguard clearances either. Both claim 28mm tyres with full mudguards and that would be enough for me. However, I've heard reports of the Spa having too tight clearances with this set-up which can be a problem on muddy lanes (not sure if design has been update since). Haven't heard of such problems on the Condor but that's not to say they don't exist.

Thanks


Think about the tyre&rim combo as well, for example a 28mm Marathon Plus is quite tall and actually 30mm wide even on 20-21mm rims, so it may rub inside the mudguard on frames that are known to have clearance for 28mm. Same for a normal 28mm tyre (say, a Gatorskin) on a wide-ish rim like the H+Son Archetype or a similar 23mm rim, you're close to a 30mm wide tyre and may leave very little clearance with the chainstays or forks.
I can tell you that on my Fratello (25mm GP4season or Gran Prix GT 25mm on Open Pro's) I won't go over a true 28mm size, just to avoid the nuisance of fallen leaves always rubbing.

To be fair, I don't expect a bike with a road geometry and made for them components, to have a massive clearance: the rear end length and the narrow chainset from road groupsets, those are the limits. There's only so much you can manipulate the chainstays, the more you squash them -to leave more room for the tyres- the more you lose in mechanical properties. I'm happy to see that on my Fratello they haven't altered the former oval section of the chainstays.
There's about 6mm each side with Gran Prix 25mm on Open Pro's


Thanks Gattonero that's some good info and worth keeping in mind.

I was considering running a similar setup 25/28cm 4 seasons on Open Pros but it does look like it might be a bit tight even with a true 28 tyre like the 4 seasons. Have you tried this setup on the Fratello? How much space would there be between tyre and guards, probably less than 1cm?

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TrevA
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby TrevA » 18 Nov 2018, 4:55pm

garibaldi wrote:
De Sisti wrote:
jerg wrote:
Spa do a nice 26T chain ring which can replace the 30T inner ring on a 105 triple. I'm running 26/39/50 with no problems.

Spa Audax with custom Stronglight chainset (46/34/24).

Image


Very nice! :wink:


Really? The Spa Audax comes across as the Model T Ford of the bike world. I know it's available in other colours but none of them are very inspiring (I've seen them all in the "flesh" in the Spa shop). And the paintwork aint that good - I've got a Spa Tourer and the paintwork is not in the same league as my Trek Domane or my old Ridgeback Panorama.

NetworkMan
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby NetworkMan » 18 Nov 2018, 9:38pm

A few points which may help a bit with a decision.
I think that the Condor comes with an integrated headset, the Spa certainly doesn't. I'm not familiar with integrated ones but IIRC they may be harder to maintain?
Ti may be subject to a cracking risk but Spa do offer a ten year guarantee with theirs.
I don't know if you ever put a bike on a plane but any paint finish may well be damaged by cargo handlers - no problem with Ti.
I have a Spa Ti Audax frame in matt finish bought as a clearance item for £625 with headset and fork etc. Spa will build their clearance frames into bikes if you want - from £1190 complete.
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s220p0/ ... -Clearance
Not many sizes left now......
The Ti frame has a few bells and whistles which are (or at any rate were) probably missing from the steel one. Chain hanger, pump peg, direct mounting for rear mudguard in seatstay, threaded bush for rear mudguard in chainstay.
There's a new Spa Audax coming out, perhaps in the Spring.
I really like my matt frame - I call it tasteful, others call them drab. Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that!

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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby De Sisti » 19 Nov 2018, 6:01am

TrevA wrote:
garibaldi wrote:
De Sisti wrote:Spa Audax with custom Stronglight chainset (46/34/24).

Image


Very nice! :wink:


Really? The Spa Audax comes across as the Model T Ford of the bike world. I know it's available in other colours but none of them are very inspiring (I've seen them all in the "flesh" in the Spa shop) Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that! And the paintwork aint that good ( I shouldn't make such sweeping generalisations) - I've got a Spa Tourer and the paintwork is not in the same league as my Trek Domane or my old Ridgeback Panorama.

The paintwork is very good on mine, thank you very much! :wink:

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Gattonero
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby Gattonero » 19 Nov 2018, 8:10am

TrevA wrote:...
Really? The Spa Audax comes across as the Model T Ford of the bike world. I know it's available in other colours but none of them are very inspiring (I've seen them all in the "flesh" in the Spa shop). And the paintwork aint that good - I've got a Spa Tourer and the paintwork is not in the same league as my Trek Domane or my old Ridgeback Panorama.


The SPA bikes I saw are not bad but not exciting either, I agree it's mostly a "workhorse" bike and may be very good at it, but the paintjob is a bit dull and personally does not inspire me. Of course, some people would like any bike that has got high handlebars and mudguards, nothing wrong with that, but it's not my standard for a "nice" bike, which will have to be above the average.

Mind you, the Condor has a very good and glossy paintjob, but in the wrong hands can be ruined fairly quick: mine is still perfect after 3 years -and I lock my bike outside shops several times a week- but I've seen some that look like have been shot with pellets :( clearly an owner that would literally throw the bike over a lampost and smash the chain or d-lock over it :cry: :cry: :cry:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Gattonero
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby Gattonero » 19 Nov 2018, 8:19am

NetworkMan wrote:...
I think that the Condor comes with an integrated headset, the Spa certainly doesn't. I'm not familiar with integrated ones but IIRC they may be harder to maintain?

Why and integrated headset would be hard to maintain? :?:
Indeed, it's a lot easier if you used it with the supplied cartridge bearings: when they're rusty/rough, just pop them out and replace them for £5. Can't be easier.
Or you can use an "open cartridge" like the Campagnolo ones, as that headset is sized for the very common "campagnolo integrated" bearings, which can be cleaned&repacked. In fact, this is made a lot easier in an integrated headset because it's angular-contact it means can be taken apart by hand (or with a tap of a screwdriver) and there's no need for special tools as you'll have to use in a traditional exernal-cups headset with loose bearings (where the bearing races are pressed in the cups and not replaceable, when rusty/pitted you'll have to replace the cups)

NetworkMan wrote:....Ti may be subject to a cracking risk ...

Just like everything! :wink:
Titanium is a lot more tricky to weld, hence some failures. If you make it very light there's obviously a shorted lifespan, ever heard of "one racing season only" steel frames? There was a short time when in the Pro Peloton they got close to 1500gr for a complete medium steel frame, but they won't last more than one season (or even less) :wink:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

garibaldi
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby garibaldi » 19 Nov 2018, 9:49pm

De Sisti wrote:
TrevA wrote:
garibaldi wrote:
Very nice! :wink:


Really? The Spa Audax comes across as the Model T Ford of the bike world. I know it's available in other colours but none of them are very inspiring (I've seen them all in the "flesh" in the Spa shop) Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that! And the paintwork aint that good ( I shouldn't make such sweeping generalisations) - I've got a Spa Tourer and the paintwork is not in the same league as my Trek Domane or my old Ridgeback Panorama.

The paintwork is very good on mine, thank you very much! :wink:


I'm a fan of more traditional looking bikes (as well as not so traditional looking ones :wink: ) hence going for brands like Spa and Condor.

The Fratello is for sure better looking (less utilitarian, if you will) but I doubt the quality of the paintwork is all that different.

garibaldi
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby garibaldi » 19 Nov 2018, 10:14pm

Gattonero wrote:
NetworkMan wrote:...
I think that the Condor comes with an integrated headset, the Spa certainly doesn't. I'm not familiar with integrated ones but IIRC they may be harder to maintain?

Why and integrated headset would be hard to maintain? :?:
Indeed, it's a lot easier if you used it with the supplied cartridge bearings: when they're rusty/rough, just pop them out and replace them for £5. Can't be easier.
Or you can use an "open cartridge" like the Campagnolo ones, as that headset is sized for the very common "campagnolo integrated" bearings, which can be cleaned&repacked. In fact, this is made a lot easier in an integrated headset because it's angular-contact it means can be taken apart by hand (or with a tap of a screwdriver) and there's no need for special tools as you'll have to use in a traditional exernal-cups headset with loose bearings (where the bearing races are pressed in the cups and not replaceable, when rusty/pitted you'll have to replace the cups)

NetworkMan wrote:....Ti may be subject to a cracking risk ...

Just like everything! :wink:
Titanium is a lot more tricky to weld, hence some failures. If you make it very light there's obviously a shorted lifespan, ever heard of "one racing season only" steel frames? There was a short time when in the Pro Peloton they got close to 1500gr for a complete medium steel frame, but they won't last more than one season (or even less) :wink:


I can't say I have a strong opinion on different types of headsets so that doesn't really swing my decision either way. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can add to that argument.

As I mentioned before, I'm not too concerned about frame cracking risk. There are plenty of people riding Ti bikes day-in day-out without any problems and the 10 year warranty from Spa also gives me peace of mind in that respect. The weight saving over steel is a plus point but the big advantage for me (as a previous posted pointed out) is not having to be over cautious with the paintwork when flying or locking up the bike.

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TrevA
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby TrevA » 20 Nov 2018, 6:31am

If you do go for the Spa, then I would specify a different headset to the one that comes with it as standard - the Tange Terios is not the best.

pwa
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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby pwa » 20 Nov 2018, 7:47am

TrevA wrote:If you do go for the Spa, then I would specify a different headset to the one that comes with it as standard - the Tange Terios is not the best.

If you get something like a Hope you can swap the bearings if you ever need to.

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Re: Condor Fratello / Spa Audax (Ti) for Audax & light touring

Postby PH » 20 Nov 2018, 9:35am

garibaldi wrote:The Fratello is for sure better looking (less utilitarian, if you will) but I doubt the quality of the paintwork is all that different.

I'm pretty sure the Condor is a traditional wet paint and the Spa is powder coated. Paint tends to look better but not be as tough as powder coat, painted frames will also usually have the decals under a lacquer and a powder coated frame usually have them on top, where they can become tatty but are easy to remove if you like the unbranded look. There are exceptions to this, some two pack paints are a lot tougher than enamels and there are some powder coating processes where the finish can match that of paint in most respects, I don't think these apply to either of these frames. Which is better depends on what you're looking for, I wouldn't let the finish be a deciding factor unless all others were equal. With an clear sheet, I'd choose paint for a best bike and powder coat for an everyday one.
The argument against integrated headsets is a simple one. Any wear or damage that may occur to the cups on a non integrated headset will happen to the frame on an integrated headset one. It can be argued that the chances of that happening are so unlikely as to make it irrelevant, but it would be foolish to argue that it couldn't happen.