Mix the old concept with new equipment

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1066enthalpies1939
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Joined: 16 Jul 2018, 10:33pm

Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by 1066enthalpies1939 »

Mix the old concept with new equipment

With the advent of rear derailleurs that can handle up to 12 cogs I was wonder do you have to use 12 cogs?

With the use of 9,10,11, and 12 speed cassettes the increase wear on the cogs and chain make them not so dependable for long term use.

Therefore, is it possible to use a 7 or 8 speed cassette with chain to match with a mechanical 12 speed-controlled derailleur?
mattsccm
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by mattsccm »

Why? You won't be loosing anything with the mech that matches.
You will be gaining comparability issues with the new mechs.
londonbikerider
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by londonbikerider »

1066enthalpies1939 wrote:Mix the old concept with new equipment

With the advent of rear derailleurs that can handle up to 12 cogs I was wonder do you have to use 12 cogs?

With the use of 9,10,11, and 12 speed cassettes the increase wear on the cogs and chain make them not so dependable for long term use.

Therefore, is it possible to use a 7 or 8 speed cassette with chain to match with a mechanical 12 speed-controlled derailleur?


No, the newest generation of 11 and 12 speed shifters work only with dedicated derailleurs. And they're meant for "perfomance" bikes so wear&tear is not the top priority.
Mix&match is never a great idea, just use the groupset as the manufacturer has developed it. A 7sp cassette with downtube shifters, or single-speed are the best in term of reliabilty.
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Cugel
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by Cugel »

1066enthalpies1939 wrote:Mix the old concept with new equipment

With the advent of rear derailleurs that can handle up to 12 cogs I was wonder do you have to use 12 cogs?

With the use of 9,10,11, and 12 speed cassettes the increase wear on the cogs and chain make them not so dependable for long term use.

Therefore, is it possible to use a 7 or 8 speed cassette with chain to match with a mechanical 12 speed-controlled derailleur?


Perhaps the concept should be expanded, extended or even launched into outer space? Can we combine a bicycle with a café, for example, which would mean you could go anywhere you like on one without worrying about getting a cake? On the other hand, it would need to be a café of a certain standard, as I cannot drink instant coffee and must have a cappuccino from one o' them large red & chrome hissing machines, served by a comely waitress who will smile at me (or is it merely the sardonic curl of her lip).

But I digress.

I once had a TT bike with a small front wheel and a larger back one. It was a queer shape i' the frame, to accommodate these mismatched wheels. Just after I acquired it (very cheaply, thankfully) they banned them in TTs. Sometimes there are "designs that went wrong". I fear you have discovered another of that ilk.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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reohn2
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by reohn2 »

1066enthalpies1939 wrote:Mix the old concept with new equipment

With the advent of rear derailleurs that can handle up to 12 cogs I was wonder do you have to use 12 cogs?

With the use of 9,10,11, and 12 speed cassettes the increase wear on the cogs and chain make them not so dependable for long term use.

Therefore, is it possible to use a 7 or 8 speed cassette with chain to match with a mechanical 12 speed-controlled derailleur?

In short ,no.
Not if you want it to index that is,if you're prepared to use friction levers then yes.
Shimano at least,upto 9sp rear mechs worked with any 6,7,8,9sp index levers(except for some early Dura Ace),front road mechs only worked with road shifters and front MTB mechs only worked with MTB shifters(though there were some work arounds to that by attaching the cable on the wrong side of the pinch bolt on some mechs).
With the advent of 10sp and above it all went out the window as cable pulls and mech both front and rear became more specific to cog count,which IMHO was a disaster particularly when triple cranksets began to be dropped by the big three manufacturers.
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pwa
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by pwa »

Have you tried a bike that has the gear levers separate from the brake levers? That is the most obvious way of freeing things up. It takes a second longer to change gear, so it won't suit those who get involved in races. And it takes a little getting used to. But it tends to be easier to maintain, provides reliable crisp gear shifts and allows much more mixing of front and rear derailleurs. Bar end or down tube levers.

My bikes are 9 speed and I find it easy to live with.
AndyK
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by AndyK »

Cugel wrote:Can we combine a bicycle with a café, for example, which would mean you could go anywhere you like on one without worrying about getting a cake? On the other hand, it would need to be a café of a certain standard, as I cannot drink instant coffee and must have a cappuccino from one o' them large red & chrome hissing machines, served by a comely waitress who will smile at me (or is it merely the sardonic curl of her lip).

Your dream is already a reality. https://coffee-bike.com/
But we digress.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by Cyril Haearn »

A coffee bike is so heavy that it cannot be ridden normally and has to be transported from A to B in a van
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Cugel
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by Cugel »

Cyril Haearn wrote:A coffee bike is so heavy that it cannot be ridden normally and has to be transported from A to B in a van

I yam a big strong lad and could pedal that contraption as long as I have a 22 toof ring and a 47 toof sprocket. As the ergs exited my person to be converted to back-tyre thrust, I would simply eat another cake, washed down with another cappuccino. Soon I would be at the top of Buttertubs and could enjoy, first, the view then, afterwards, the dangerous coffee-jagging descent.

It is a puzzle about the power to weight ratio, though. As I emptied the cart of cake and coffee, by consuming them, would this lessen the weight even though it was all now inside me? I suppose it depends on how rapidly the metabolism converts cake to ergs (and how many stops for a wee-wee I make). Someone could do an on-line calculator....

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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Brucey
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by Brucey »

'new equipment'....? You mean modern (e.g. shimano) STIs?

Quite why you would actually want those ugly monstrosities on your bike is anyone's guess........[BTW did you see what they did there? They softened us up for the full monty i.e. necessarily ugly hydraulic STis by having optionally ugly STIs for a few years beforehand.... :roll: ]

But they have gone out of their way to make them as awkward to maintain as possible, and have made them incompatible as possible with anything else..... for example

- hydraulic STIs only work with hydraulic brakes
- cable operated STIs (new types from ~2008 onwards) have a longer brake cable pull and only work with 'new super SLR' brakes....
- current front derailleurs are mostly double only and have a different cable pull from older models. You will lose the trim function first....
- RDs have a different shift ratio with every new iteration (*). Soon they will run out of shift ratios to try next.

(*) but sometimes they accidentally make it so that you have an easy route to control a sensible number of gears with a shifter that is designed for the latest (mostly pointless) round of N+1-ism. For example ST-4700 (second generation tiagra 10s) pulls ~2.8mm/click, which happens to be a close match for the cable pull required for 8s shimano gearing using a 7/8/9s shimano rear derailleur.

cheers
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cycle tramp
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by cycle tramp »

Gosh, yes why not mix equipment....
I've currently have an 8 speed rear derailleur, moving the chain across a 5 speed freewheel, operated by a thumb shifter from the 1980's...
...i've just wired in my new led headlamp (bought 2nd hand from this very site) to a 1990's bottle dynamo...
...ideally i'd like to find a way to convert my rear hub brake from cable operated to rod operated... still thnking about that one....
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pwa
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by pwa »

Brucey raises a point which I have long been aware of but have not mentioned because it seemed subjective, which is the ugliness of road STI levers, the bulkiness that makes a bike look like a red deer with big antlers. It almost looks like you attach the bike to the levers rather than the other way round. I abandoned them years ago and felt relief. my cycling was as good as before but all the compatibility issues that go with STI were a thing of the past and the front of the bike looked so much neater.
robc02
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by robc02 »

I've never felt constrained to exclusively use what the manufacturers' recommend! Hence my bikes are a mix of parts I fancy using. I have rarely bought a new "bike"; mostly they evolve from previous bikes or are assembled from a mixture of new and old parts. But then I like making, modifying and repairing things - especially ones that are supposedly unrepairable/send to manufacturer etc.

As an example, my current commuter usually has parts ranging from the 1950's to 2000's. "Usually" because I can't make up my mind about which IGH I prefer so swap it every now and then!

cycle tramp wrote:Gosh, yes why not mix equipment....

...ideally i'd like to find a way to convert my rear hub brake from cable operated to rod operated... still thnking about that one....


....go on, tell us more - why, how?

I ask because I've wondered about something similar. Probably a hybrid using a cable from the handlebar (drops) to the frame and then rods to the hubs. I have a couple of 1930s roadsters with rod operated drums, and there is a lot of flex in the linkages at the BB. This would need a bit of thought and redesign, especially if the joints are to survive the mud spray of a British winter.
robc02
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by robc02 »

pwa wrote:Brucey raises a point which I have long been aware of but have not mentioned because it seemed subjective, which is the ugliness of road STI levers, the bulkiness that makes a bike look like a red deer with big antlers. It almost looks like you attach the bike to the levers rather than the other way round. I abandoned them years ago and felt relief. my cycling was as good as before but all the compatibility issues that go with STI were a thing of the past and the front of the bike looked so much neater.


The other well known make doesn't suffer in quite the same way........ in my opinion, of course.
satanas
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Re: Mix the old concept with new equipment

Post by satanas »

^ Campag seem to be trying to have as many incompatible Ergopower innards and left shifters as possible though, plus I suffered hand damage from using Ergos in PBP 2015 that persisted for some months. On the other hand, I've had STI since 1991 and zero broken levers or hands from them to date.

I'm not convinced things are necessarily more incompatible than in the past, but rather that there are many more options - some totally different to others - and thus it's impossible that everything could get along. Nobody expects that to happen with car parts, railway gauges, computer software, etc, so I'm somewhat perplexed why people would expect bicycles to be different.

Later,
Stephen
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