9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

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RideToWorky
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9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby RideToWorky » 26 Dec 2018, 12:33pm

Hi all,

Hope you had a nice Xmas everyone!

Continued ponderings on gears set up for uphill commuter – light Tourer.

Is the below rear cassette usable in real life?
Paring it with a 48-32 double front.

12-36 Cassette:
Gearings: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36 teeth

Questions:
Q1.8 of the nine rings below, appear to be evenly spaced out. Is this reasonable for every day cycling, with a front double ring?

Q2.the final jump, from 32 teeth to 36 teeth, is that a problem Gearchange? Or is that just a standard mountain bike dead leg gear for extreme situations?

Q3.has anybody used this with cassette set up? Does it work cleanly with a double front ring, or is it a bit of a pain with; chain noise, clunky changes, big step riding cadence changes etc.?


https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... -36-209435

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby Brucey » 26 Dec 2018, 1:44pm

see http://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB=32,48&RZ=12,14,16,18,21,24,28,32,36&UF=2150&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=MPH&DV=gearInches

for how the gears are arranged assuming a 48,32 chainset and that cassette. (you can change the settings in the calculator btw).

You can see that the percentage gaps in the gear ratios are not uniformly arranged (they never are) but also that the 32-36 jump is actually no bigger than lots of other gear intervals in the cassette.

A common gripe with this cassette (and some others) is that the 18-21 interval is both too large and in exactly the wrong place; certainly I'd prefer another gear ratio with that particular chainset, but others may have a different view on the gearing.


Shifting (with the right shifters and mech) ought to be pretty good. However IIRC if you use 'road' shifters with this cassette, there is one shift in the middle of the cassette which won't be quite as slick as the others. This effect is so small that most folk don't even notice it.

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 26 Dec 2018, 4:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tykeboy2003
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby tykeboy2003 » 26 Dec 2018, 2:58pm

Been spaced out for years man....

drossall
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby drossall » 26 Dec 2018, 4:58pm

I think the ranges are too wide, and too widely separated. Typically, you'll have a relatively small number of gears that you use on your average, undulating or flat, roads. Depending on your riding style, those might be in the 60s and 70s, or the 50s and 60s. You want those in both ranges, so that you can handle either hitting a steep bit, or catching the wind behind for a long stretch, without changing rings all the time. Your lower range doesn't overlap much with the upper, and has a lot of really low, grinding up hills gears. Your bottom might only be needed if laden on a 1:6 or something. And people used to race on 102" top.

Personally, on a double, I'd lose a bit off the top and bottom (maybe a 44 top ring and a slightly-smaller largest cog). Or, go for a triple with something like a 12-27 or, if you can get one, a 13-27, and rings spaced by about 10 teeth. If you want a set of really low climbing gears, that rather than a very wide cassette is the way to do it, in my view.

irc
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby irc » 26 Dec 2018, 5:08pm

My tourer is set up with a custom 12-34 cqssette to avoid the big 17-20 gap in the middle of the standard 11-34. Shimano make a 12-34 which reduces that gap to an 18-20 but only in super expensive XTR. So my solution? I took the 12-14-16-18 cogs from a 12-36 cassette and merged then with the 20-34 part of an 11-34 cassette. Thus giving me a 12-14-16-18-20-23-26-30-34 cassette.

Running with a 22-32-42 cassette my top gear is high enough for 28mph (with a huge tailwind).

On a previous tour I tried a 13-34 but found I missed the 12T.

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Cugel
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby Cugel » 26 Dec 2018, 5:09pm

RideToWorky wrote:Hi all,

Hope you had a nice Xmas everyone!

Continued ponderings on gears set up for uphill commuter – light Tourer.

Is the below rear cassette usable in real life?
Paring it with a 48-32 double front.

12-36 Cassette:
Gearings: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36 teeth

Questions:
Q1.8 of the nine rings below, appear to be evenly spaced out. Is this reasonable for every day cycling, with a front double ring?

Q2.the final jump, from 32 teeth to 36 teeth, is that a problem Gearchange? Or is that just a standard mountain bike dead leg gear for extreme situations?

Q3.has anybody used this with cassette set up? Does it work cleanly with a double front ring, or is it a bit of a pain with; chain noise, clunky changes, big step riding cadence changes etc.?


https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... -36-209435

I used a 14-36 with a 50/34 chainset. It worked very well with no hesitation in the changes or other problems. I did tend to avoid 50/36 though.

As Brucey says, the 32>36 jump (when in the smaller ring) is not so large. What would be annoying is too big a jump in the faster-speed gears - that 18>21 for example. I avoided this by starting the cassette with a 14 rather than a 12 sprocket. One does then have to buy two cassettes to disembowel to make one cassette with the required cogs, which is also annoying (but just once).

Mine was 10-speed though. Perhaps you should start your cassette at 15 then? I have done with another set up that uses a triple chainset. 52/15 is top gear and quite enough as it'll allow 32mph at a fast rev rate. I can only go faster downhill, when pedaling isn't necessary.

Cugel

ANTONISH
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby ANTONISH » 27 Dec 2018, 8:20am

I used a 12-36 cassette paired with a 44-26 double chainset for a recent tour.
The set up worked well enough for touring but I couldn't describe the changing as "slick". I'm not sure if it's the cable run or that I'm pushing the rear changer to it's limits.
I used an old Deore LX rear changer which has seen quite a bit of use - since I also have one of these on a 10s set up I'd like to find a new replacement but I'm not sure what.
I've since changed the small front ring to 32.

BigG
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby BigG » 27 Dec 2018, 10:32am

I use an even wider 8-speed (11-13-16-19-23-28-34-41) cassette with a RD761SGS rear mech and have no trouble at all in indexed changing despite the mixture of cogs. The 16 to 34 are coherent and came from a 7-speed but now with 9-speed spacers on an 8-speed hub. The top pair are from a 9 speed and the 41 tooth just plain and unramped off ebay. The gaps will of course be too large for many and I use an old fashioned half step (44-40) to fill them. I still find that most of my changes are rear only with the front used for trimming when needed. On hilly mid-Devon roads I am seldom in one gear long enough to get round to fine tuning. Incidentally, I have a granny ring as well now that the hills are getting steeper each year. A 26" bottom gear from the double is no longer nearly low enough.

freeflow
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby freeflow » 27 Dec 2018, 12:48pm

I've been riding a 44/32/22 with 11/12 -36 for the past four years. Excellent for 20%+ gradients and the end of long hilly rides. As I'm now doing less hills I've switched to a Shimano compatible Miche 13-29 cassette which I'm finding very ridable and which allows more use of the 44 chainring. For context I'm 61 and a somewhat lardy 112kg.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 27 Dec 2018, 12:56pm

I have this cassette but with slightly smaller front rings, 46-30 rather than 48-32. For unladen riding it's fine but for laden touring, I sometimes want closer ratios.

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Chris Jeggo
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby Chris Jeggo » 27 Dec 2018, 3:49pm

My modern touring bike has 3x9 gearing, 42-32-22 and the 12-36 cassette you ask about. It all works fine, giving me suitable gears for day rides and low enough ones for, for example, an unsupported tour of the Pyrenees, going over TdF cols such as the Aubisque and Tourmalet with a pair of panniers and a saddlebag.

My old (1984) touring bike is used only for day rides now and has 2x9 gearing, 40-24 and an 11-34 cassette. I use the silly 11t sprocket virtually never so the outer chainring is aligned with the centre of the cassette and used with the central 7 sprockets, covering most eventualities, but when the road really tilts up I bale out to the inner ring. That, too, all works without fuss.

Both set-ups have a 3t jump in a non-ideal position, as others have pointed out, from 17t (63.1") to 20t (53.6") on the old bike and 18t (62.5") to 21t (53.6") on the new. This can be avoided, as described up-thread, by combining 12-14-16-18 sprockets from a 12-36 cassette with 20-23-26-30-34 sprockets from an 11-34 cassette. I tried this too, and it does give a slightly better set of ratios, but I found the changes between the 18t and 20t sprockets were not slick enough, because the gates and ramps are not correctly aligned, coming from different cassettes. As this is a shift that is made quite often, when this custom cassette wore out I chose not to replace it.

As mentioned above, some people really dislike these 3t jumps, but I don't find them a problem. So, only you can decide whether you can accept them. This jump is slightly smaller in percentage terms in the 12-36 cassette than in the 11-34, so eventually I shall switch from 11-34 to 12-36 on the old bike, using slightly larger 42-26 chainrings, to get much the same gear range, but a bit better spaced. Other marginal gains from larger sprockets are greater efficiency and reduced wear rates.

I hope this helps.

keyboardmonkey
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby keyboardmonkey » 28 Dec 2018, 8:41am

RideToWorky wrote:... Q3.has anybody used this with cassette set up? Does it work cleanly with a double front ring, or is it a bit of a pain with; chain noise, clunky changes, big step riding cadence changes etc.?


Given that this 9 speed set up is intended for a touring bike - and the two chainrings are on the largish side for that purpose - I'd not be to worried about starting with a 12T sprocket. And at the other end the difference between a 34T and a 36T is not so great: assuming a 32mm tyre and your 32 chainring, the "gear inches" for the 34 sprocket and 36 are around 24.01 and 25.4 respectively. (Using a 34T large sprocket would normally mean you can, say, get away with a cheaper 9 speed MTB rear derailleur rather than the pricier 'Shadow' type derailleur that many folk might reach for when speccing a 36T largest sprocket, if this is a consideration.)

So, my suggestion would be to get hold of a couple of HG50 cassettes and cobble together a custom 13/15/17/19/21/23/26/30/34 cassette for the smooth progression of a nicely spaced range of sprockets:

http://cycleseven.org/customising-shima ... e-cassette

In addition to the above - if budget and the ability to fit a front derailleur low enough permit - I might consider something like a Spa super compact if a triple is out of the question. The 42/26 will give - for me at least - a nice range of usable, fairly close gears whilst on the big ring without having to cross-chain. Top gear near 90 inches and bottom close to 20.

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531colin
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby 531colin » 31 Dec 2018, 1:28pm

How time flies....2011 I was messing around to get rid of a 17 to 20 tooth jump https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54328&hilit=nightmare
That cassette is still in use, so I don't think it was too extravagant taking two cassettes apart to make one.

De Sisti
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby De Sisti » 31 Dec 2018, 4:20pm

I like 9 speed 13/14/15/17/19/21/24/27/30. I try to buy 12-27 cassettes, ditch the 12-13, add a
13 sproket with lockring and a 30t bottom. The 13 and 30 don't get used as much as the middle 7
sprokets, so are genearally re-used on a subsequent replacement cassette without any issues.

Shimano have stopped supplying the Sora/Tigagra 12-27 cassette, so I have been up-stocking with
the Ultegra variant from Rose.de (about 35 euro).

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CJ
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Re: 9 speed cassette: 12-36. Too spaced out for front double?

Postby CJ » 1 Jan 2019, 6:34pm

I've used this 12-36 9-speed cassette with a genuinely compact double (42,22) on my touring bike these past three years and find it absolutely spiffing!

Don't worry about the cassette being too widely spaced, or take any notice of those hyper-sensitive souls who opine that it is. I've ridden behind and studied the gearing use of people who advocate closely spaced gears and they don't shift any more often than I do. Rather than use the fine tuning as they claim, to maintain a constant cadence, what they actually seem to want this for is a closely-spaced selection of 'just right' gears frrom which they hope to select one that is not too low for the flat or too high to power up moderate slopes! Not a clever way to use gears IMO.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.