Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

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reohn2
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby reohn2 » 6 Jan 2019, 11:29pm

Samuel D wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The other thing is a long head tube isn't a problem,my Salsa Vaya has a 185mm head tube but with the stem slammed down on the headset it's well below saddle height.

Aye, but your saddle is probably higher than the saddles of most people buying “54 cm” frames. The Roadini does have a deliberately high front end. The example builds have a tall quill stem on top of that.

Full geos:

47 cm

50 cm

54 cm

57 cm

61cm

So the 57 cm, for example, has a 217.7 mm head tube.

Point taken,it wouldn't trouble me in the slightest though as I now ride with the tops of the bars well above the saddle and have done for some years,what I find as a result is that I can actually ride for long distances on the drops comfortably :wink:
I see a lot of people who seem to struggle to even reach the drops on most modern road bikes due to short head tubes and the stem slammed down on the headset :?
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Samuel D
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby Samuel D » 6 Jan 2019, 11:30pm

MikeDee wrote:The 1" threaded headset would keep me from buying that bike. The selection of stems and modern handlebars is minimal these days. I had to go to a quill adapter to get a decent handlebar that I liked.

I suppose it depends what handlebars you like. I got a Nitto Noodle that was unfortunately only available in 26.0 mm, meaning I had to get a new stem to avoid shims (that I fear). Nitto’s range seems to cover a lot of options including 1" threaded.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby reohn2 » 6 Jan 2019, 11:35pm

Samuel D wrote:
MikeDee wrote:The 1" threaded headset would keep me from buying that bike. The selection of stems and modern handlebars is minimal these days. I had to go to a quill adapter to get a decent handlebar that I liked.

I suppose it depends what handlebars you like. I got a Nitto Noodle that was unfortunately only available in 26.0 mm, meaning I had to get a new stem to avoid shims (that I fear). Nitto’s range seems to cover a lot of options including 1" threaded.

The Japanese randoneur/touring scene is a bit like Jan Heine's,out of the '50's/60's French approach,so it seems logical Nitto would accomodate it.
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scottg
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby scottg » 7 Jan 2019, 1:17am

reohn2 wrote:[[snip] I got a Nitto Noodle that was unfortunately only available in 26.0 mm, meaning I had to get a new stem to avoid shims (that I fear). Nitto’s range seems to cover a lot of options including 1" threaded.

The Japanese randoneur/touring scene is a bit like Jan Heine's,out of the '50's/60's French approach,so it seems logical Nitto would accomodate it.[/quote]

Nitto thru Compass and Simworks make 31.8 and 25.4 versions of their bars now.
Soma Fabrications makes a lovely Jack Lauterwasser pattern bend in steel or alloy.
25.4 only. So you can 1930s British style bends on your cycle.
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Why not the best, buy Cyclo-Benelux.

iandusud
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby iandusud » 7 Jan 2019, 8:22am

Brucey wrote:Honestly I have never spent much time messing about with threaded headsets; once set up correctly they just work (often for the life of the bike); by contrast A-head headsets seem always to be on the verge of going wrong in some new and interesting way;
cheers


Amen!

Brucey
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby Brucey » 7 Jan 2019, 8:27am

MikeDee wrote:The 1" threaded headset would keep me from buying that bike. The selection of stems and modern handlebars is minimal these days. I had to go to a quill adapter to get a decent handlebar that I liked....


plenty out there if you look.

I notice that you described your chosen handlebars as 'modern' and that 'you like them' which suggests that in the first place you are worried about how they look and in the second you are not really sure about what is really good about them. The primary thing about handlebars is that they are of a shape that allows you to achieve a desired range of riding positions. IME having squished tubes, funny bends and odd lumps sticking out is not fundamental to this, even if it seems to be an intrinsic feature of most 'modern' handlebars.

Funny how we managed without handlebars that looked like kicked in dustbins for about a century or so..... :roll:


Shimano doesn't even make threaded headsets anymore, which is what I have on my old bike. Instead of replacing the cartridge bearings in it when they wear out, I'll have to buy and fit a whole new headset.


er, shimano "doesn't even make" any headsets any more and hasn't done for about twenty years. FWIW well specified/adjusted/maintained headset bearings shouldn't wear out, which is probably why you have a 1" headset that must be at least 20 years old. The reason you will have to buy a new headset if the bearings fail is because the cartridge bearings in your headset were a proprietary standard and they are no longer manufactured. The world of headsets is currently awash with proprietary bearing 'standards' and obtaining bearings for those will doubtless be tricky in twenty year's time too. The reason you can still buy a threaded headset and a quill stem is because

a) those parts work well and
b) they ARE manufactured to real standards, not imaginary/proprietary ones

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

peetee
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby peetee » 7 Jan 2019, 8:53am

The world is also awash with A-headset bikes that have improperly adjusted bearings. I would estimate about 50% of A-head bikes appearing in my workshop fall into this category. There are a number of reasons for this but in the majority of cases I see it's because owners have adjusted the height of their bars without knowing the right way to do it. It's a very ingenious system but for the most part the advantages are cheaper assembly and manufacturing costs for the bike companies. The disadvantage is that adjustment is counter intuitive to anyone used to quill stems.
Current status report:
Latter side of fifty and feeling less than nifty.
Too many bikes on pegs and too few miles in the legs.

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531colin
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby 531colin » 7 Jan 2019, 9:12am

reohn2 wrote:……...
I agree with all of that except that I find a low BB quite helpful both on and off road,pedal strike isn't a problem IME but the ability to dab a foot whilst in the saddle can be helpful......

Each to their own, I guess.
I once bought a frame without checking Bb height; it was low, and pedal strike was a real nuisance, several times a day off-road.
On a motor bike off road, I can "dab" a foot without losing forward motion because theres an engine. On a push bike if the section of track is tricky enough that I'm going slowly enough to dab a foot, then by the time I've dabbed I have stopped pedalling effectively and come to a halt. I find I'm either "feet up" pedalling with my weight on my feet (the lowest possible and most stable position) ...or I'm stopping, getting off and walking.

reohn2
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jan 2019, 9:20am

Brucey wrote:Honestly I have never spent much time messing about with threaded headsets; once set up correctly they just work (often for the life of the bike); by contrast A-head headsets seem always to be on the verge of going wrong in some new and interesting way;
cheers

On Saturday I was out for a ride,on my new Vagabond,on a steepish bridleway I thought I noticed a little play in the headset.I stopped and rocked the bike back and to with the front brake applied and sure enough there was ajust a lettle play so without dismounting out with the multitool and with one Allen key folded out I adjusted it there and then,it took me about a minute maybe :wink:
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Brucey
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby Brucey » 7 Jan 2019, 9:20am

peetee wrote:The world is also awash with A-headset bikes that have improperly adjusted bearings. I would estimate about 50% of A-head bikes appearing in my workshop fall into this category. There are a number of reasons for this but in the majority of cases I see it's because owners have adjusted the height of their bars without knowing the right way to do it. It's a very ingenious system but for the most part the advantages are cheaper assembly and manufacturing costs for the bike companies. The disadvantage is that adjustment is counter intuitive to anyone used to quill stems.


I agree.

However I would describe the adjustment as being counterintuitive to anyone including trained engineers. The intention is to provide a controlled preload to the bearings; a more half-assed approach to doing this would be difficult to conceive of. For a (mass production) cost of about 1p you could add a wave washer to the spacer assembly, or a Belleville washer to the top cap, or something like that. The procedure would then be to nip the preload bolt up and then back it off 1/4 turn (say). You certainly wouldn't be any worse off than at present either.


Fundamentally having the headset bearing setup tied to one of the adjustments that an 'untrained user' is going to want to make is a catastrophically stupid idea. Almost as stupid as having a system that requires you to buy a new stem if you want to make a meaningful change in the height of the handlebars.... :roll:

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jan 2019, 9:21am

scottg wrote:Nitto thru Compass and Simworks make 31.8 and 25.4 versions of their bars now.
Soma Fabrications makes a lovely Jack Lauterwasser pattern bend in steel or alloy.
25.4 only. So you can 1930s British style bends on your cycle.


Nice! :)
Last edited by reohn2 on 7 Jan 2019, 9:40am, edited 1 time in total.
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Brucey
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby Brucey » 7 Jan 2019, 9:24am

reohn2 wrote:
Brucey wrote:Honestly I have never spent much time messing about with threaded headsets; once set up correctly they just work (often for the life of the bike); by contrast A-head headsets seem always to be on the verge of going wrong in some new and interesting way;
cheers

On Saturday I was out for a ride,on my new Vagabond,on a steepish bridleway I thought I noticed a little play in the headset.I stopped and rocked the bike back and to with the front brake applied and sure enough there was ajust a lettle play so without dismounting out with the multitool and with one Allen key folded out I adjusted it there and then,it took me about a minute maybe :wink:


yes but if you had a threaded headset that was properly set up, it wouldn't have come loose in the first place.... :wink:

Did I ever mention the time I magically managed to move my handlebars up and down about 2" using a single allen key? etc etc etc :wink:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jan 2019, 9:28am

531colin wrote:
reohn2 wrote:……...
I agree with all of that except that I find a low BB quite helpful both on and off road,pedal strike isn't a problem IME but the ability to dab a foot whilst in the saddle can be helpful......

Each to their own, I guess.
I once bought a frame without checking Bb height; it was low, and pedal strike was a real nuisance, several times a day off-road.
On a motor bike off road, I can "dab" a foot without losing forward motion because theres an engine. On a push bike if the section of track is tricky enough that I'm going slowly enough to dab a foot, then by the time I've dabbed I have stopped pedalling effectively and come to a halt. I find I'm either "feet up" pedalling with my weight on my feet (the lowest possible and most stable position) ...or I'm stopping, getting off and walking.


I rarely walk,I like tricky sections and enjoy finding the path through the path without dabbing,adjusting the pedal stoke timing it though,it's one of the many joy's of slow off road riding for me :)

EDITED for clarity
Last edited by reohn2 on 7 Jan 2019, 9:45am, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jan 2019, 9:36am

Brucey wrote:
yes but if you had a threaded headset that was properly set up, it wouldn't have come loose in the first place.... :wink:

Did I ever mention the time I magically managed to move my handlebars up and down about 2" using a single allen key? etc etc etc :wink:

cheers

I don't think it actually came loose but more as a new bike had settled in.
I've never yet needed to adjust my stem up or down whilst out riding,my riding position is determined well in advance,and even if I did I could do it with a single Allen key by shuffling spacers,which admittedly would be a bit more of a faff,though a simple enough task without dismounting :)
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531colin
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Re: Grant Petersen’s Rivendell Roadini

Postby 531colin » 7 Jan 2019, 9:38am

Samuel D wrote:…..I thought all of that would make the Roadini’s 190 mm head tube work out, but maybe I’m forgetting to account for something about quill stems...…

Here's the comparison.
Spa 54 Audax; Fork 375; head tube 135; spacers 50 I think you said? total = 560
Rivendell; fork 378 ; head tube 190; total = 568
But then, your saddle will be 12mm lower, because the BB is 12mm lower, and you have got to find room for the extra stack height of a threaded headset against an Ahead. I think you'd struggle.
Samuel D wrote:….. they’re talking about 35 mm tyres (which would introduce other problems you mention, e.g. toe clearance).

Not to mention the impossibility of getting a 35mm tyre and mudguard under a dual pivot sidepull in the first place.
Samuel D wrote:…..I like the simple elegance of dead straight, crimp-free chain and seatstays, but no-one seems to do those. Have you any idea what tyre size those would limit me to if I got a custom builder to make me something? I’d go with long stays if that helped clearance (and probably anyway). I use 172.5 mm cranks that should clear most stays.

I have such a frame loafing about. I'll dig it out. Seatstays are never a problem (in "average" sized frames anyway). Current Shimano road doubles will easily clear chainstays set 100mm apart at (say) 190mm from the bracket axle.