a nasty surprise for someone....?

[fastpedaller]

Competence (or lack of it) is curable.

I disagree.... I've known (and still know) some folk who (despite given instruction) can barely change a lightbulb - an electrical plug (or indeed a bicycle brake) would be well beyond their capabilities!

[foxyrider]

FWIW,I have BB7 cable discs on all but one of my bikes(a folder),with 160mm rotors front a rear,they're powerful enough to lock up either wheel which is about the same as V's with decent pads fitted.The plus is their superb modulation and performance in wet weather or mucky conditions where they're better than any rim brake and more predictable.
Will people stop blaming disc brakes for the failure of riding ability of those with rim brakes,if you can't stop in time leave more room.

Modulation on disc brakes is appalling. OTOH it's brilliant on my Campag DP's. Even my worst rim brakes can beat my discs on that front. Braking power from the lever however varies hugely but even then the discs come in second to the best rim brakes.

I've used pretty much every type of rim brake and some are p**s poor. IME the biggest proponents of discs are people whose previous experience was with these less good set ups / systems.

There are certainly situations where discs are better than rim brakes but it cuts both ways. Last winter my discs froze in some cold snow/slush conditions and left me brakeless, back in December I found myself riding in not dissimilar conditions with rim brakes that worked with barely any degradation of performance.

I'm not arguing either way here, even the best brake if not maintained won't do its job well, it's not a them and us between discs and rim (or any other system for that matter).

You may have answered this question before but what disc brakes are you using?
BB7's are the best brakes I've ever used on both solos and tandems

Having worked in bike shops/factories for a long time i've had the opportunity to try a huge variety of disc stuff from the earliest offerings to all singing, all dancing hydraulics. None of them have good modulation, its pretty much all or nothing, full hydraulics being the worst for this. Cable are better but any skimming the brake could result in unhealthy heat build up on long descents - i've got burnt rotors to back that up! (even with floating rotors)

Currently i've got HYRD on the disc bike and even with 180 front disc they are at best adequate. A friend has two bikes with BB7's - he doesn't do a lot of arduous riding but has already killed one caliper - this is someone who spends a lot of time servicing and maintaining the family bikes. Yes they work when they work but if they don't, well nada.

Clearly the terrain we ride is not great for disc brakes unless you have a tame mechanic sorting everything for you. (it's only the Peak District, although I guess that's still a lot more braking than many folks get. Racers and serious Mtb riders will be stripping everything down after every event which is hardly real world! I wouldn't trust them beyond a day anywhere that requires serious braking!

We know brakes vary, our racing tandem ran Campag Delta brakes - now there was living on the edge! FWIW, some of the best brakes I have used are the Galli Criterium's on my 70-80's race bike, fully serviceable and even with terrible wound outer, very powerful!

[reohn2]

Foxy
I can't agree with you,BB7's I find have great modulation,and great overall stopping power on solos with 160mm rotors,and on tandems with 203mm rotors.Brilliant brake in wpwet or dry conditions and I never done any damage to them despite overheating the rear rotor on the tandem to rather electric blue colour
By far the best brakes I've ever used and I have no need of hydraulic brakes

[LittleGreyCat]

Just noting that so far my cable disc brakes don't seem to be as fierce as the V brakes I tried a few times.

In a group I would be worried about being behind a bike with V brakes not discs. Apart from in the wet, of course.

By fierce do you mean powerful?
In which case what disc brakes do you have fitted and what size rotors?

For context I have ridden a mountain bike with cantilever brakes for decades. So I am used to that level of performance.

The first time I tried V brakes I was very close to a gonads/handlebar stem interaction. I soon learned to be more gentle on the brakes, but even in a maximum grip on the levers situation I never got that level of retardation from the cantis. So to my mind the V brakes are fierce unless you use them gently. Modulation has been mentioned which I presume is something to do with how gently or harshly you apply the brakes.

My experience so far with the cable discs - TRP Spyre from the Spa site but I have no idea of the rotor size - has been that they feel more like the cantis than the Vs. They seem to stop me OK but I haven't had a sudden lock up with gentle lever pull, or anything alarming of that nature.

Most bikes in the small bunch I ride with seem to have discs (hybrid, that is cable with hydraulic at the caliper, I think). I haven't seen any of them having problems with too fierce braking. Or too little for that matter.

Then again when we hit 15 mph it is probably because of a tail wind so braking experience on ultra light bikes doing 20+ mph may be very different. Warp speed is only achieved down steep hills.

My expectation is that V brakes in the dry will out perform the discs, but the discs come into their own in wet conditions. Time will tell. I've only ridden the bike {counts} about 6 times so far and only two longish runs.

[reohn2]

Good modulation translates as increasingly more pressure on the brake lever increasingly more braking which is predictable,no modulation means he brake is either on or off nothing inbetween the two.V's are somewhere about medium to bad modulation,and at the slow speed,especially when wet can be very "grabby" or no modulation.

Spyres like all disc brakes need a period of bedding in usually between 100 and 150miles to reach optimum,a really mucky muddy ride usually accelerates the process.

[Brucey]

all brakes modulate differently. IME there is very often as much or more variation within types than between them. It takes a long time to get used to any one brake and even then there may be a 'reversion to type' under panic conditions.

Brakes that behave unpredictably (eg varying with very small changes in conditions on the braking surface that you couldn't possibly keep track of) are potentially extremely dangerous. So are brakes that 'come on' by themselves, by which I mean the friction coefficient varies much eg with the duration and strength of the brake application.

Disc brake pad compounds vary enormously; in car brakes you can get the 'same pads' (i.e. the same backings with the same thickness of friction material) to work with different cars. If you buy aftermarket very often you get the same pad compound regardless of which vehicle the pads are to be fitted to. If you buy OEM the pad compounds vary with model fitment. Nearly all car brake compounds have a two letter code which tells you the difference between cold and hot friction coefficients. However even the 'cold' test is slightly misleading; often it takes a fraction of a second for the brakes to work fully, i.e. the friction coefficient increases during the initial brake application, i.e. the brake 'comes on by itself'. Pads meant for a heavy vehicle often don't work at all well when installed in a lighter vehicle; the brake does nothing much for half a second until the pads heat up a bit.

Bike brakes can vary in the same way; however there is very little information about the pad compounds, (some 'come on' by themselves and some 'go away' by themselves, especially if they have never been bedded in properly.....) and how they behave varies with the disc type and condition too. I have experienced both the best and the worst braking imaginable, (sometimes with the same brake) depending on the conditions. For example on one of my favourite MTBs the hydraulic brakes modulate beautifully, work well/predictably in the mud etc but..... when the brakes are soaking wet they are completely useless for about a second on first application. This made them too dangerous to use for commuting; if anyone stepped off the pavement in front of me I'd hit them just as surely as if I had chromed steel rims and caliper brakes. If you are able to use sintered pads (OK in most mechanical calipers) things would be better, in this respect at least.

Grabby V brakes are often that way because pad twists slightly as the brake is applied. This varies a lot with the condition of the brake (worn pivots etc) and it also varies with the longitudinal position of the brake block. As well as compound variations, you can use brake blocks with different mounting positions (varying from central to over 5mm offset) and this can make a significant difference to the brake characteristic. Unfortunately changes you make might not have the effect immediately; the brake has to bed in again before the new behaviour is known for sure.

Someone riding with powerful brakes in a group, who might make a panicky lunge at their brakes, is an accident waiting to happen. On the other hand a lot of other issues can be ridden round under other circumstances; you can get used to most things.

cheers

[LittleGreyCat]

Just looked and the rotor is marked TR160-29.

So 160mm.

No idea if this is good or bad yet.

[reohn2]

Just looked and the rotor is marked TR160-29.

So 160mm.

No idea if this is good or bad yet.

160mm rotors are a standard size for solos and if your Spyres are correctly adjusted and bedded in they're more than adequate for good stopping performance with good modulation

[AMMoffat]

I think the law regards a second brake as a graceful failure mode for the first brake. In practice, it's not that graceful. But to attempt to start addressing the question of whether it's a good idea for brakes to be non-user serviceable, I think there are (inevitably) advantages and disadvantages both ways. If the brakes are not user serviceable, you can be stranded in the middle of nowhere or left in a position where you take the risk of riding with only one brake or with brakes not working properly. In practice, non-user serviceable for these purposes must include user serviceable with special tools (ones you are unlikely to carry with you – and bear in mind many non-enthusiast cyclists won't even carry a puncture kit) or with skills the average person doesn't have or can't summon up at the roadside.

I'm not sure what you mean by non-user-serviceable and what failure modes you are anticipating? For example disc brakes will make noises when you have run through the pads. Repair may be new pads and/or discs. Pads are replaceable road-side but if you don't bring them, well....

It was Brucey who raised the question so it would be good to get his answer. I was thinking of something more like your second class below.

There are two classes of 'non-user serviceable' here. Firstly there is the 'BSO with no brakes' you see parked outside pubs etc. Whether or not these are user-serviceable is irrelevant, given that the user does not, in fact, service them and rides without brake(.ks).

This is always the case. However easy an item is to service or maintain, if people don't do it they don't do it. I don't think it's the type of case addressed by Brucey's question.

Secondly there is the 'resourceful cyclist serviceable', IMO there isn't really a difference here between brakes - all kinds of brakes can be fixed by competent home mechanics, and in terms of 'roadside repairs' most of the time it is going to be a case of 'limping home' if your brakes are dodgy.

Yes, but not all cyclists are competent home mechanics.

User seviceability is of primary importance to me, as long as the brakes work. I mountain bike in remote areas when I get the opportunity and always on my own, as OH does not mountain bike. On one such ride one of my hydraulic disc brakes failed and the other was barely working by the end. After that trip I replaced the hydraulic brakes with BB7s on the basis that there is very little about a BB7 that I cannot fix myself with basic tools whilst off the beaten track. I'm not even convinced that the BB7s work less well than the hydraulics but they give me that extra peace of mind.

[reohn2]

User seviceability is of primary importance to me, as long as the brakes work. I mountain bike in remote areas when I get the opportunity and always on my own, as OH does not mountain bike. On one such ride one of my hydraulic disc brakes failed and the other was barely working by the end. After that trip I replaced the hydraulic brakes with BB7s on the basis that there is very little about a BB7 that I cannot fix myself with basic tools whilst off the beaten track. I'm not even convinced that the BB7s work less well than the hydraulics but they give me that extra peace of mind.

I've never felt BB7's to be any less than very good brakes whatever the weather,on or off road,muck and or mud,and need little attention from one month to the next other than a dribble of GT85 on the adjusters to keep the threads lubed after washing or if the ride is a wet one.

They're the reason I've stated on the forum before that I've never felt the need for hydraulic brakes,BB7's are of simple design very reliable and can in extremis,should the need arise,be stripped and rebuilt by the roadside,another plus is that I have to adjust the pads manually which is a reminder of the state of the pads.
All in all the perfect disc brake IMO

[Brucey]

regarding 'user serviceability' , it kind of depends on the user as well as the mechanism itself. And how often it is likely to need fiddling with; there is a 'consequence' thing going on here as well. Normally a failure to maintain a brake leaves you less one brake. However the same failure twice over leaves you with no brakes at all. [Remember the kind of user is self-selecting, so those who most appreciate 'self adjusting brakes' are by the same token the least likely to do any maintenance whatsoever or indeed understand how their brakes actually work in any more than the most superficial way.]

Rim brakes are mostly pretty straightforward; when they don't work you can normally see the reason (eg that the brake blocks are worn, not hitting the rim properly and/or the cable needs adjusting etc) and probably if you can manage to pump a tyre up you might be able to adjust the brakes too. There are only a few things that might catch you out, like rim wear; with the right rim design even this failure mode might be 'graceful'. Overall, not perfect by any means, but not that tricky either. If you don't know anything about such brakes it is easy enough to find someone that does.

Mechanical disc brakes are fairly straightforward but it isn't obvious to an unskilled user (e.g. simply by looking at one that isn't working right for the first time since most folk won't RTFM ) that the pads are worn and if so what you should do about it. Twirling the barrel adjuster is very often something that will temporarily alleviate the problem but it will for sure store up big troubles for later on. The brake manufacturers don't help themselves here; they fit barrel adjusters which you often shouldn't really use, have hidden (or very different looking/working) pad adjusters, have arms that have a different stroke from how it looks, and have weird requirements for how the disc itself should be centred in the caliper body. The idea that it might be possible to have an indicator for pad wear doesn't seem to have occurred to them. At heart they are simple devices but IMHO they might as well be non-user serviceable if you are not prepared to put in a modicum of effort into learning how to maintain even the most simple mechanical discs, and you are going to come unstuck. Finding someone who really knows any given model of brake intimately within a group of cyclists is by no means assured; such brakes are many and various. Failure from pad/disc wear is at least fairly obvious; however other failure modes can be entirely graceless.

Hydraulic discs (open system) are great for the user who doesn't want to fiddle with any adjustments but that all too often translates into a failure to appreciate that you need to check for pad wear too. Again not that difficult to do the basic maintenance (check for pad wear, pad swap if necessary) but even that needs to be proactively checked for/done; there are no warning signs until it is too late otherwise; again there is no pad wear indicator. [Remember we live in a world where manufacturers think it prudent to add gear indicators, presumably because it won't be obvious enough to an average user otherwise, and they wish to avoid a mild inconvenience. No manufacture has thought to give a similarly clear indication of brake pad wear, and the consequences are far greater than 'a mild inconvenience'.... double standards anyone?] So they might as well be non-user serviceable in a way, in that the kind of person that really values the self-adjustment feature is also the kind of person that probably won't check the pads and discs for wear often enough either. Anything more complicated than that is way up on the learning curve. Most failures are graceless, in that the pad backings trash the discs or the brake just stops working.

Cable hydraulic disc brakes like the TRP HyRd arguably combine the worst of both worlds; they have all the problems of hydraulics, added to which they have many of the problems of cable discs, e.g. the exact workings of the mechanism aren't obvious. I'd guess maybe half the users of HyRds don't understand that they can easily lose the self-adjustment facility (eg by adjusting the cable and/or pushrod screw) and that their brakes will quite quickly just stop working if they do. If you RTFM it tells you what to do, but it doesn't explain why; yes you can 'make the brake work' by fiddling with things but in so doing you may guarantee total brake failure a short while later. Once set up right they might be convenient for users who don't want to fiddle much, but they are totally unsuitable for those very same users too.

I quite like drum brakes; the instinct of an unskilled user is usually to adjust the cable and (amazingly) that is also the correct thing to do. IME adjustments any kind are only required at comparable intervals to those at which disc pads need replacing. Five or ten years of daily use is usually required before the linings need to be renewed.

cheers

[reohn2]

IMO with mechanical bicycle technology there's two paths open to the user.
Entrust everything to a shop,or learn to do it yourself.
Bicycle tech is mostly simple and the internet is a boon in the learning about it,so you can be good at fixing and maintaining your bike either with maintenance at home or repairs on the roadside,which is extremely useful in the middle of nowhere.
The problem with modern bicycles is that they are becoming more complicated and high tech which is OK until something goes wrong,at home that's sort of OK,on the roadside not so.
They're not like cars with roadside breakdown services and it's can be a PITA waiting for a friend of loved one by some lonely road getting cold to pick you upnot to mention the inconvenience to them.It's a powerful thing being able to fettle and repair your bike yourself should it breakdown,I see that gradually slipping from the grasp of future generations of cyclist on the present course cycle technology is heading.
Of course the new technology's may become so reliable it'll not breakdown but I'm not sure enough ATM to risk it

When I first bike fitted with BB7's I spent an hour or so checking out how to maineptenance videos on YouTube,with a minimum amount of time practicing approx,another hour or so,I was confident enough to strip,adjust change pads and maintain them .

[thelawnet]

Of course the new technology's may become so reliable it'll not breakdown but I'm not sure enough ATM to risk it

What do you mean by mechanical? Hydraulic systems are not mechanical, but hydraulic disc brakes can be serviced as much as mechanical disc brakes.

As far as a disc brake caliper overhaul goes, the hydraulic ones can be stripped also. SRAM treat this as something you might want to do https://www.sram.com/sites/default/file ... nglish.pdf

Whereas Shimano calipers are designed to be thrown away if the caliper fails.

[AMMoffat]

Of course the new technology's may become so reliable it'll not breakdown but I'm not sure enough ATM to risk it

What do you mean by mechanical? Hydraulic systems are not mechanical, but hydraulic disc brakes can be serviced as much as mechanical disc brakes.

As far as a disc brake caliper overhaul goes, the hydraulic ones can be stripped also. SRAM treat this as something you might want to do https://www.sram.com/sites/default/file ... nglish.pdf

Whereas Shimano calipers are designed to be thrown away if the caliper fails.

I'm with Reohn on being able to self-repair as far as possible. The hydraulic brake failure I mentioned in my previous post was a leak in the hydraulics, eventually fixed by my LBS. Whilst that might be a relatively rare failure it is something that is not fixable in the middle of a Scottish mountain far from anyone/anywhere and with no possibility of anyone getting close in a vehicle to provide rescue. Mechanical for me if it will reduce the chance of me having a very long and arduous walk home. I'm sure hydraulic systems have their place, just not for my type of use.

It took me a very long time to set up the replacement BB7s correctly - I may not be the world's best bike mechanic - but the advantage is that I now know how they work and am confident that I can deal with most problems.

[reohn2]

Of course the new technology's may become so reliable it'll not breakdown but I'm not sure enough ATM to risk it

What do you mean by mechanical? Hydraulic systems are not mechanical, but hydraulic disc brakes can be serviced as much as mechanical disc brakes.

As far as a disc brake caliper overhaul goes, the hydraulic ones can be stripped also. SRAM treat this as something you might want to do https://www.sram.com/sites/default/file ... nglish.pdf

Whereas Shimano calipers are designed to be thrown away if the caliper fails.

The key words in my post are 'by the roadside',something that hydo's can't be without specialist equipment,and a loss of fluid means a loss of brake end of until you get home.
I carry a brake,a gear cable and brake pads with me and a multitool,it's all I need even in a worst case scenario.