Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

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rogvespa
Posts: 4
Joined: 17 Jan 2019, 2:50pm

Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by rogvespa »

Hi there,

First post so go easy on me! :D

I have a mid 1990s Pashley Prospero with the Sprinter Elite 5-speed hub + 70mm drum, it was a tow path rescue project!
The original hub internals were very worn so I replaced with the: HSX140 internals which were working fine for 6 months up until a few weeks ago when 1st and 2nd gear started clonking, I tried adjusting the indicator chain many times but still the problem persisted.

Last night I took the hub apart, checked and cleaned pretty much everything, put it all back together and same behaviour occurs :(
I'm assuming something is worn in the hub now, I have minimal time to mess about due to new baby etc so I just want a quick/easy solution.

Is there an easy swap to a new Sturmey Archer (rotary?) hub? The O.L.D on the Pashley/Sprinter is approx 125mm - I saw the XRD5 has O.L.D of 130mm so I'm guessing that would fit ok?!

5 gears and the drum brake suits me fine, any advice would be appreciated, I'm more used to taking Vespas apart rather than bicycles!

Cheers,
Roger
Brucey
Posts: 44515
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by Brucey »

'clonking in gear 1 and 2' sounds like it is the 'low gear pawls' which are at fault. These are on the outside of the LH end of the internal and engage with a drive ring inside the hubshell.

Other possibilities include

- fault in the sun locking (eg inside the axle)
- fault in the driver pawls
- incorrect internal clearances (RH cone setting)

but both of these produce other symptoms in other gears too. Of course you need the correct shifter for that hub, in good condition, and to have it adjusted correctly, with the correct cable. You would be surprised how often folk fall down on the simple things....

There are two versions of the 'sprinter' 5s hub; one has dog locking suns and the other has ball-locking suns. They both use the same shifter, but have very different internals. IIRC ball-locking internals have an obvious chamfer on the left end of the axle and dog lockers don't. Both are amenable to being fixed if you know what you are doing.

The most obvious swap is an X-RD5 (W). This will need its own shifter (the cable pulls are different to your sprinter) and if (as it usually does) the shifter sticks between positions following a downshift, you will need to acquire the habit of pulling the shifter back to the detent position after each downshift in order to avoid the hub breaking. You will need to rebuild the wheel around the new hub because the X-RD5(W) internals won't go into the sprinter hubshell. As you say the OLN will be slightly greater. The gear ratios will be slightly different and the hub internals will benefit from more, better lubricant than SA supply. It is a very good idea to add a locking washer to the RHS of an X-RD5(W), so that the RH cone cannot possibly move.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rogvespa
Posts: 4
Joined: 17 Jan 2019, 2:50pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by rogvespa »

Many thanks for the reply Brucey, I did notice that the gear ring in the hub shell seems a bit worn, it didn't look like it was a replaceable part though?
I have the red thumb shifter with the dot which actually worked quite well and the blue indicator chain for the HSX140 internals as recommended by the website: https://hollandbikeshop.com/en-gb/bicyc ... try_id=222

Also, the X-RD5(W) hub doesn't seem to be available new any more and from searching around online I could see some grumbling that there were issues with the design of this hub.

Would this hub be no good then? http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/rx-rd5

Cheers,
Roger
Brucey
Posts: 44515
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by Brucey »

the red bezel 'sprinter' thumbshifter suffers from the same problem as the black bezel X-RD5(W) thumbshifter, and it also breaks the hub if not used as described above.

The RX-RD5 is a newer (and much heavier) hub. It has different internals, including suns that lock using a mechanism that is like the sun locking in 8s hubs. The thumbshifter pulls more cable per shift but has the same style internals as the thumbshifters for the other 5s hubs and generates the same kind of errors. The jury is out on whether the whole arrangement is really reliable or not.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rogvespa
Posts: 4
Joined: 17 Jan 2019, 2:50pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by rogvespa »

Thanks again Brucey, so how would I know if I've messed the hub up via the dodgy shifter? Is there something obvious to see?
I'm not too fussed about weight, after previously owning a Gazelle Tour Populair this Pashley feels like a featherweight! :D

I just want a setup that works :( would any of the other manufacturers be worth looking at? Shimano/SRAM etc? Not sure any of those do the drum brake which my frame is configured for.

Cheers,
Rog
Brucey
Posts: 44515
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by Brucey »

rogvespa wrote:Thanks again Brucey, so how would I know if I've messed the hub up via the dodgy shifter? Is there something obvious to see?
I'm not too fussed about weight, after previously owning a Gazelle Tour Populair this Pashley feels like a featherweight! :D

I just want a setup that works :( would any of the other manufacturers be worth looking at? Shimano/SRAM etc? Not sure any of those do the drum brake which my frame is configured for.

Cheers,
Rog


SRAM have discontinued all hub gear manufacture last year. They are not even making spare parts so if you have one, it breaks now, and you can't get the spares (quite likely) it is scrap, pretty much.

Shimano make some hub gears that are worth considering. Nexus 3, Nexus 5 (not in this country), Nexus 7, Nexus 8. These can be fitted with a thing called a roller brake, which is a grease lubicated drum brake which uses metal on metal friction. I have no great fondness for roller brakes; SA hub brakes are much better brakes in most respects.

Also worth considering is a basic SA 3s hub, eg X-RD3.

If the red bezel 'sprinter' shifter sticks between gears after a downshift it may well have killed the hub. Between 1 and 2 the sun locking gets mangled, between 2 and 3 the high gear drive pawls get smashed, between 3 and 4 the high gear clutch takes a pasting. The same logic applies to (W) hubs as well as sprinters but the details are of course different. IIRC you can still buy a new axle assy for a sprinter, and the other parts that might be damaged are farily obvious and/or not too expensive.

I mentioned earlier that a different technique can spare the hub damage with these shifters. However there is an alternative which is to rebuild the shifter. I have done dozens of them but it isn't really a one-time DIY proposition.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greystoke
Posts: 482
Joined: 8 May 2018, 7:41am
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by Greystoke »

Is there a decent SA 5 speed gear shifter for the SR5(W) available?
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mjr
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Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
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Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by mjr »

Brucey wrote:Shimano make some hub gears that are worth considering. Nexus 3, Nexus 5 (not in this country), Nexus 7, Nexus 8. These can be fitted with a thing called a roller brake, which is a grease lubicated drum brake which uses metal on metal friction. I have no great fondness for roller brakes; SA hub brakes are much better brakes in most respects.

Also worth considering is a basic SA 3s hub, eg X-RD3.

I strongly prefer my SA X-RD3 over my previous Nexus 3. The indicator rod/chain is far easier to set up than the finickity bell crank and less prone to parking damage, the shifters seem better and spares are available readily as parts, rather than whole internal assemblies. Even simple supposedly-replacable parts like the bearing rings for Nexus 3 were very difficult to find in UK retailers. Nexus 3 felt like a backwards step from even the old AW.

The X-RD3 brake seems much better too, but the Nexus 3 had a coaster brake so I know I'm not comparing like with like.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Brucey
Posts: 44515
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by Brucey »

Greystoke wrote:Is there a decent SA 5 speed gear shifter for the SR5(W) available?


the final version of the gripshift is better but it is like a lot of other gripshift type shifters; very cheaply made from plastic and may be prone to wear, failure, binding, you name it. Earlier versions not only broke but had cable pulls that didn't seem to be appropriate for the hub.


There is a trigger-type shifter but I have not tried that. My experience of microshift trigger shifters for Nexus 7 has put me right off; those appear to be scientifically designed to flex the cable/rub it hard on the barrel adjuster so that the cable won't last a year of daily use. I think the same shifter guts are used for the SA 5s one too; it may or may not be flawed in the same way.

So even though it is 'known bad' the thumbshifter is possibly pick of the bunch. You just have to use it differently.

FWIW I think the (W) hubs are far from perfect (I think the planet gear bushings will eventually give trouble) but they are not as bad as one might expect. Walk into any bike shop in the country and they will (unless they are still trying to sell bikes with them fitted) say bad things about them; they will have seen plenty of breakages, little realising that the shifter is usually the main culprit.

If set up properly and with a good shifter, in 2-3-4 they work very much like an AW (and what is happening inside the hub is very similar) but with an extra low gear and an extra high gear also available; the shifts in and out of 1 and 5 are baulkier than the other shifts though.

The shifting in and out of 1 and 5 ought to be a lot better in the RX hubs, because of the way the sun pinions are locked but it is not proven if this is really reliable as yet; it hasn't always been in 8s hubs.

Even with a good shifter a 1mm setting error can break the hub; a bad shifter will generate a 1mm error when new and a 2mm error when worn so the hub stands no chance unless you pull the shifter back to the detent after every downshift.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rogvespa
Posts: 4
Joined: 17 Jan 2019, 2:50pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by rogvespa »

Thanks again for all the advice, I think I’m going to go for fitting the latest Sturmey Archer Rotary 5-speed into a new 26” wheel, I’ve just seen a Pashley Britanica in a shop with one fitted and think I can do the same provided the 135mm OLD is not too much for the frame which was previously used with the 125mm Sprinter hub,

Cheers
Rog
Brucey
Posts: 44515
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by Brucey »

bearing in mind that the thumbshifter has the same (flawed) guts in as the one for the (W) hubs and the red bezel sprinter thumbshifter, it is probably prudent to use the RX thumbshifter in the same way too, i.e. to pull the shifter back to the detent after every downshift.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greystoke
Posts: 482
Joined: 8 May 2018, 7:41am
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by Greystoke »

Why do SA not make a suitably robust quality shifter?
Brucey
Posts: 44515
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Sturmey Archer Sprinter Elite 5-speed - modern replacement?

Post by Brucey »

dunno.

Arguably the only really good shifter they have ever made is a trigger shifter. This ain't perfect by any means, but it is fairly obvious when it isn't working properly, you can see all the moving parts. A drop of oil every now and then and they last for decades.

Older (most twin toggle model) 5s hubs can be worked with two trigger shifters and this results in a very reliable arrangement. If the LH shifter/cable goes wrong you are left with a 3s hub. What goes on inside the hub when the RH shifter is worked is the same as in a 3s hub. This means that, given a few givens, such a 5s hub is about as reliable (from a shifting standpoint) as a 3s hub.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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