Tubeless tribulations

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 398
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 23 Dec 2018, 3:14pm

Greystoke wrote:Squirt lighter fluid in then light it....that's got tight rally tyres on a few of our rims :D
Goes bang loudly tho


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wihjelArZLk

Don’t attempt this on a bike tyre, you’ll be walking home if you do.

althebike
Posts: 234
Joined: 10 May 2018, 12:58pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby althebike » 23 Dec 2018, 9:20pm

A few things to consider, use washing up liquid, as mentioned, but it needs to be very dilute, not thick. If you want to try a compressor, the ones at tire sales are much better than ones in garages that put the air in very slowly. Another layer of rim tape may work too, even if the old tape looks undamaged and was OK with the old tire.If you put sealant in first, you just end up with a mess.

mnichols
Posts: 1412
Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 23 Dec 2018, 10:22pm

The wheels are mavic all road disc pro ust

I have other tubeless wheels. The cores definitely weren't removable. I'm used to taking cores in and out.

https://shop.mavic.com/en-gb/allroad-pr ... #1028=3283

The tyres are Schwalbe Pro One

mnichols
Posts: 1412
Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 13 Jan 2019, 3:13pm

Got a puncture today in the new tyre which failed to seal. I took the tyre off to put a tube in and all the sealant had dried up.

This was a new tyre three weeks ago, Schwalbe Pro One and Stans Sealant. Any idea why this would dry up so quickly?

Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 398
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 13 Jan 2019, 4:48pm

Tubeless is a poor idea on a road bike. On a mountain bike it’s a great idea, you can run super low pressures without fear of pinch flats, on a road bike, it’s a pain in the buttock.

Brucey
Posts: 34878
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Brucey » 13 Jan 2019, 6:05pm

mnichols wrote:…. Any idea why this would dry up so quickly?


if the tyre was initially inflated using CO2 then this can react to form a weak acid and this weak acid can react with latex-based sealants so that the sealant 'dries out' (cures) abnormally quickly.

There are many, many, potential pitfalls with 'road tubeless'.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

mattsccm
Posts: 2637
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mattsccm » 13 Jan 2019, 7:12pm

"Tubeless is a poor idea on a road bike."
No its not. It's just not for you. I guess you had a less than satisfactory experience.
Only this morning I rode over a hedgehog. Or it might have been the big heap of blackthorn cuttings. 3 holes, all sealed. Noticeable but more than acceptable pressure loss meant that I didn't bother getting the pump out until the coffee stop. Less hassle to me.
Maybe a bteer comment might have been "for me Tubeless is a poor idea on a road bike."
Just a thought.

Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 398
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 13 Jan 2019, 7:17pm

mattsccm wrote:"Tubeless is a poor idea on a road bike."
No its not. It's just not for you. I guess you had a less than satisfactory experience.
Only this morning I rode over a hedgehog. Or it might have been the big heap of blackthorn cuttings. 3 holes, all sealed. Noticeable but more than acceptable pressure loss meant that I didn't bother getting the pump out until the coffee stop. Less hassle to me.
Maybe a bteer comment might have been "for me Tubeless is a poor idea on a road bike."
Just a thought.


Get some experience, come back and comment when you have.

mnichols
Posts: 1412
Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 13 Jan 2019, 8:18pm

Brucey wrote:
mnichols wrote:…. Any idea why this would dry up so quickly?


if the tyre was initially inflated using CO2 then this can react to form a weak acid and this weak acid can react with latex-based sealants so that the sealant 'dries out' (cures) abnormally quickly.

There are many, many, potential pitfalls with 'road tubeless'.

cheers


That would make sense. I used co2 because it releases the gas quickly to pop the rims.

Any ideas on how to clean the dried and crusty sealant from the inside of the tyre. If i can find the ho!e again then ill try patching it. Otherwise im going with conti 4 seasons, conti tubes and sealant in the tube

mnichols
Posts: 1412
Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 13 Jan 2019, 8:23pm

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Tubeless is a poor idea on a road bike. On a mountain bike it’s a great idea, you can run super low pressures without fear of pinch flats, on a road bike, it’s a pain in the buttock.


I have to say that i don't get this problem on my gravel bike with WTB 42 nano. But i think they more have puncture protection in the tyre

My experience with the Schwalbe Pro One is that they puncture easily and the sealant fixes it. The problem with that is that if there is a problem with the sealant or the hole/tear is too big then it doesn't work. The upside is that they roll really well. The may end up being a summer solution for me

Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 398
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 13 Jan 2019, 10:26pm

mnichols wrote:
Marcus Aurelius wrote:Tubeless is a poor idea on a road bike. On a mountain bike it’s a great idea, you can run super low pressures without fear of pinch flats, on a road bike, it’s a pain in the buttock.


I have to say that i don't get this problem on my gravel bike with WTB 42 nano. But i think they more have puncture protection in the tyre

My experience with the Schwalbe Pro One is that they puncture easily and the sealant fixes it. The problem with that is that if there is a problem with the sealant or the hole/tear is too big then it doesn't work. The upside is that they roll really well. The may end up being a summer solution for me


Quite right on everything there.

BarryS
Posts: 97
Joined: 15 Apr 2010, 10:14am

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby BarryS » 14 Jan 2019, 11:04am

one approach that has helped me with the original problem
I try to only fit tubeless tyres in the garage when I have patience to spare. First fit the tyre with a tube on the intended wheel, make sure it 'pops' properly onto the rim bed. over inflate and leave for few days, some tyres are initially almost impossibe to lift over the rim are now a bit easier, so the bead has stretched a touch.
Delate fully, and this is important I find, the tyre must stay up on the rim bed. If it drops into the well, add another layer of tape, repeat if necessary.
Take out the tube and fit valve with no core and inflate (track pump sometimes or a blast from compressor)...etc.

If it still won't inflate, I put the tube back in and pop the tyre again. Deflate and now ONLY push one bead down and lift only that side over the rim to retrieve the tube. Now try to inflate tubeless, and the air pressure only needs to move 'half' a tyre. I generally paint a bit a sealant on this bead first too, and it's worked in all but one stubborn case.

Bit of faff, and I don't think it practical on the road. I have not yet had non sealing puncture but if I did and my tyre unseated, I couldn't be sure a normal pump/CO2 would definitely pop it back, so always carry tube. I could repeat all of the above, but in practice would just leave the tube in until later. Not happened in three years but that's the plan

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NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 10374
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 14 Jan 2019, 11:45am

Hi,
mnichols wrote:Got a puncture today in the new tyre which failed to seal. I took the tyre off to put a tube in and all the sealant had dried up.

This was a new tyre three weeks ago, Schwalbe Pro One and Stans Sealant. Any idea why this would dry up so quickly?

I would not waste my time!
Life time of fixing flats for other people.
Doesn't do what is says on the tin?
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

mnichols
Posts: 1412
Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 14 Jan 2019, 4:40pm

BarryS wrote:one approach that has helped me with the original problem
I try to only fit tubeless tyres in the garage when I have patience to spare. First fit the tyre with a tube on the intended wheel, make sure it 'pops' properly onto the rim bed. over inflate and leave for few days, some tyres are initially almost impossibe to lift over the rim are now a bit easier, so the bead has stretched a touch.
Delate fully, and this is important I find, the tyre must stay up on the rim bed. If it drops into the well, add another layer of tape, repeat if necessary.
Take out the tube and fit valve with no core and inflate (track pump sometimes or a blast from compressor)...etc.

If it still won't inflate, I put the tube back in and pop the tyre again. Deflate and now ONLY push one bead down and lift only that side over the rim to retrieve the tube. Now try to inflate tubeless, and the air pressure only needs to move 'half' a tyre. I generally paint a bit a sealant on this bead first too, and it's worked in all but one stubborn case.

Bit of faff, and I don't think it practical on the road. I have not yet had non sealing puncture but if I did and my tyre unseated, I couldn't be sure a normal pump/CO2 would definitely pop it back, so always carry tube. I could repeat all of the above, but in practice would just leave the tube in until later. Not happened in three years but that's the plan


Thanks Barry, the problem that I have found with Pro One's is that it wouldn't be a tyre that I would choose to run with a tube (other than get me home) because the puncture protection isn't good. IMHO, they seem to have traded puncture protection for rolling resistance, and so if you run it with a tube you're going to get a lot of punctures.

This trade-off is fine on good roads in the summer, and it's ok if your sealant is working, but my problems was hedge clippings plus dried up sealant

It will be interesting to see if I can repair and reseat this tyre, otherwise they are too expensive to be disposable, and I'll have to find another solution

BTW, what air-compressor do you use, and does it release air quick enough to pop a tubeless tyre on a rim?

mnichols
Posts: 1412
Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Tubeless woes

Postby mnichols » 14 Jan 2019, 4:46pm

BTW, I think remember what caused the puncture

The puncture came just after a short downhill and a Magpie flew across my path, as it was on a bend and I needed to keep both hands on the bars and brakes and so I was unable to salute the bird, wish it a good morning and ask it how his wife was

The tyre immediately deflated, I pinched the first tube and then my pump broke

Next time, I'll salute the Magpie and take my chances one handed down the hill and around the bend