SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

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Samuel D
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby Samuel D » 8 Feb 2019, 10:08am

I wonder if Shimano will go wireless. There is currently a convenience benefit to wireless installation. But it’s possible to envisage a future wherein bicycle frames come from the factory with standardised wiring looms for power and communications, with one centralised battery to power everything and sockets at suitable points for GPS, cameras, derailleurs, shifters, dropper seatposts, power meters, lamps, the lot. At that point, derailleurs could be plugged into a combined power and comms socket sitting nearby, and wireless would offer minimal extra convenience.

NickJP
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby NickJP » 8 Feb 2019, 10:18am

Samuel D wrote:If you think your SRAM battery will last half a century you should offer it to Tesla or Panasonic to reverse engineer. They’ll cover you in gold if you’re right.

No, I don't think it will last that long - my calculation was tongue-in-cheek. But a decade is quite realistic, and that's longer than I expect the derailleur itself to last. Batteries in EVs usually have at least an eight year/160,000km warranty - a friend with a seven-year-old Nissan Leaf tells us that the battery capacity in his Leaf is still at about 85% of new.

londonbikerider
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby londonbikerider » 8 Feb 2019, 7:36pm

I'm not running to buy it, as I'm still riding my triple chainset and 9 speed cassette.
But if someone wants to buy it, I'm not judging them. All I care is that there can still be a decent supply of 9 speed cassettes of good quality.

londonbikerider
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby londonbikerider » 8 Feb 2019, 7:41pm

scottg wrote:The good bit, some cross compatibility between road and mtb parts,
you can mix match like in the old 9 speed days, hooray.

The kit is way too expensive for CTC users, notice no 7 speed wireless option.
No AA batteries for battery packs, SRAM appears not to pay attention
to CTC preferences.

Neat bit, as local bike shops disappear, kit gets even more complicated
and difficult for punters to service.


I suppose that if you chosen to pay that price for the ultimate high tech, you won't have any problem in paying a cab to bring you back home.
Also, those things would be replaced altogether, forget about servicing them! C'mon, when was the last time you've heard of servicing the car fuel pump, and I mean strip/replace parts/reassemble?? :mrgreen:

Brucey
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby Brucey » 8 Feb 2019, 8:21pm

NickJP wrote:- a friend with a seven-year-old Nissan Leaf tells us that the battery capacity in his Leaf is still at about 85% of new.


it'll be interesting to see how residual values of such vehicles fare; if he owns the battery and it is out of warranty (in a year's time?) then the car's value will be severely diminished; in the event of battery failure a replacement will cost more than the car is worth.

Also I suspect that the 85% value might not be accurate; when Li cells start to go bad the electronics that manages them is usually easily confused. The only real test is to drive the car (at a known temperature) until the battery falls over.

cheers
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The utility cyclist
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Feb 2019, 9:11pm

SRAM e-tap is better IMO than Shimano in not needing a separate battery away from the derailleurs, if I was buying an electronic system I'd want it to be properly wire-free, otherwise what's the point. The only advantage as I can see it for Shimano is that it's a bit cheaper, more of it to get 2nd user and that you can have a 3x11, albeit it's still damn costly when compared to non electronic.

This 'innovation' in utilising the 10T sprocket (and SRAM saying it has negligible effect on efficiency) so they can use smaller rings is debatable, as mentioned the jump from the 10 to the 11 is huge, the 33/33 combo is still not low enough for those 'normal' punters who might want to go on a long climb or when you've done a long ride and that short sharp shock is right at the end and you're absolutely cream crackered. Lack of gearing options just stinks of cutting costs and they're still missing a large section of the market by doing so :roll:

The £325 for a cassette is an absolute pee take amongst the other jokes with respect to the power meter on the chainring nonsense :twisted:

I quite like the look of the kit (except the hydro shifters which on all systems look horrible), the chainset looks quite modern but for those who might even want to pony up it's just got too many shortfalls.

Probably new BB interface, new Freehub std not compatible with anything and so on, even higher performing enthusiasts with deep pockets are going to be thinking, hang on, NONE of my existing stuff will work with this and maybe need a new frame and wheels, sure, some will stump the cash for anything but the downsides are going to put off a few who will want to buy this type of thing.

Brucey, why do you always resort to using insulting language when it comes to people spending money on things you wouldn't? No-one is "naive" for wanting to part with their money, it's simply not necessary and off topic to always throw insults and continually make derogatory comments about cyclists due to their personal buying decisions!

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fossala
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby fossala » 8 Feb 2019, 9:12pm

NickJP wrote:
fossala wrote:Around 12 minutes cycling. and around 40 shifts.

If you extrapolate that out to three hours, that's 600 shifts, so not so different to what I see over that timeframe.

Yeah, misread what you wrote. Maybe I shouldn't reply to posts at 5:30am as I'm shovelling cereal down my throat getting ready for work. My apologies.

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Cugel
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby Cugel » 8 Feb 2019, 10:10pm

The utility cyclist wrote:(snip)

Brucey, why do you always resort to using insulting language when it comes to people spending money on things you wouldn't? No-one is "naive" for wanting to part with their money, it's simply not necessary and off topic to always throw insults and continually make derogatory comments about cyclists due to their personal buying decisions!


Buyers of black-box land-fill fodder are worse than naive; they're dupes become complicit in the ongoing neolib consumerist scam and planet-despoliation. Fashion victims. Bauble-addicted, glamour-fooled folk defined only by what they own.

Buyers of such stuff are not "making personal buying decisions". The decision was made by those who have built the consumerist hegemony fold that various sheep-people feel obliged to get driven into by advertising-collies. Sheep make decisions about running for the fold in only the most dilute sense of decision-making. The advert-collies know better.

Still, we all like the myth of free will, eh!? The alternative view is, I admit, depressing, since one way or another we are all sheep. I would 'fess up my own herd behaviours but what would you think!? The shame!!:-)

Cugel

mig
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby mig » 8 Feb 2019, 10:15pm

fossala wrote:
NickJP wrote:
fossala wrote:Around 12 minutes cycling. and around 40 shifts.

If you extrapolate that out to three hours, that's 600 shifts, so not so different to what I see over that timeframe.

Yeah, misread what you wrote. Maybe I shouldn't reply to posts at 5:30am as I'm shovelling cereal down my throat getting ready for work. My apologies.


clearly you need an app to help you in this instance and bluetooth connection for your spoon.

thelawnet
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby thelawnet » 8 Feb 2019, 10:27pm

The utility cyclist wrote:SRAM e-tap is better IMO than Shimano in not needing a separate battery away from the derailleurs, if I was buying an electronic system I'd want it to be properly wire-free, otherwise what's the point. The only advantage as I can see it for Shimano is that it's a bit cheaper, more of it to get 2nd user and that you can have a 3x11, albeit it's still damn costly when compared to non electronic.


Shimano don't offer a 3*11 road setup . Only mtb.

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RickH
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby RickH » 8 Feb 2019, 10:45pm

thelawnet wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:SRAM e-tap is better IMO than Shimano in not needing a separate battery away from the derailleurs, if I was buying an electronic system I'd want it to be properly wire-free, otherwise what's the point. The only advantage as I can see it for Shimano is that it's a bit cheaper, more of it to get 2nd user and that you can have a 3x11, albeit it's still damn costly when compared to non electronic.


Shimano don't offer a 3*11 road setup . Only mtb.

AFAIK you can use road Di2 shifters with the MTB setup.

Canuk
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby Canuk » 9 Feb 2019, 1:06am

Samuel D wrote:Here’s a concise and simple description of li-ion ageing by a battery scientist. It explains calendar ageing and the impossibility of optimising the battery design for both high and low temperatures, which is a problem for bicycle batteries that have to sit in the sun outside a Mediterranean café on a windless day and struggle though a Scandinavian winter, and, unlike phones, without contact with the moderating heat sink of the human body.

Ageing is the major problem of li-ion chemistry that is otherwise attractive for its energy density. If you think your SRAM battery will last half a century you should offer it to Tesla or Panasonic to reverse engineer. They’ll cover you in gold if you’re right.


Battery aging would indeed be a problem if you were charging the battery every day. Its down to charge /discharge cycles and the standardised figure is around 500 cycles before you see any drop off in performance. That's why most mobile phones still operate, even on original batteries after 5 years. In fact most Li ion batteries will perform well over 1000 cycles with only a very small <5% deterioration. Which is of course entirely moot in an electric shift set up. When you are charging the battery perhaps once a month. I charge my Di2 approximately once every three months, and I still use the batteries I bought 5 years ago, and confidently expect them to outlive me.

I'm afraid your critique holds no water. Plenty hot air mind.

Its been said many many times before that cycling is the new golf. This is fantastic for LBS owners. Previously you'd be hard pushed to take £500 from a tight fisted, hard nosed club cyclist once every 5/10 years. And even then it would be with a grimaced expression. With golf course fees round my way running at some £7K a year, the golf bat toting fraternity have found cycling and happily roll down to our LBS and give him £5000, on a recurring basis c. every 2 years.

It is a great period to be the owner of a bike selling business. In fact round our way its one the last remaining 'traditional' bricks and mortar retail businesses still on the go. The owner of my lbs is a very happy man. And very knowledgable about SRAM and Di2. The golf bat fraternity are very happy too, because now they have a huge palette of aspirational tools at their disposal which to apply to their bicycles.

And if it is these newbies, aspirational they may be, who are paying for the rapid advance of cycling technologies and lining the pockets of my good friend Jean Marc (thanks for the invite to your new indoor pool) who are we, tight fisted, miserable luddites that we are, to complain? Somebody has to be the first adopter, someone has to foot the bill. We wouldn't have disc braking, cassette hubs, indexed paddle shifting, or clip less pedals without them.

+1 for the golf bat guys!

Brucey
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby Brucey » 9 Feb 2019, 3:32am

more information here;

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

talk of batteries being 'unaffected' by storage, temperature, cycling etc is just fanciful nonsense.

This is a typical result from cycling

Image

and (say) just storing batteries fully charged for (say) one year at 25C can reduce their recoverable capacity by 20% (which is why laptop batteries die even if you only use mains power).

Upthread the Nissan Leaf is mentioned. Many owners have found their actual battery capacity reduced by over 25% in 1-2 years (which might not be reflected in the 'capacity' prediction; you only find out it is hopelessly wrong by running out of juice). This article explains why this happens;

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die

To hear some folk talk you would think Li-Ion represents battery perfection; it ain't like that at all, its just the best we've got.

cheers
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Canuk
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby Canuk » 9 Feb 2019, 8:41am

Brucey wrote:more information here;

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries



https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die

To hear some folk talk you would think Li-Ion represents battery perfection; it ain't like that at all, its just the best we've got.

cheers


I'm still running the original batteries I bought with my first Di2 set up nearly 6 years ago. I've run them in the harshest of Canada winters with daytime temperatures and overnights of between -15C and - 45C. The spares I maybe charged 20 times in all those years. Across the terminals they're all still giving the original voltage. I bought the spares when they were 20 quid each.

Your 'online' research doesn't hold any water in real world applications. I'm still using a Nokia 8310 I bought I don't know, 11 years ago. I charge it everyday and it works flawlessly. Lets put this battery myth to bed - Li Ion is the best battery tech available. If it weren't the case Volkswagen ect wouldn't be ploughing billions into it to power their next generation of electric cars. It's a ludicrous argument, you do yourself no favours by copying and pasting the same tired links every time to 'defend it'. Give it up. Its getting embarrassing now.

Even in one of the harshest winter environments on earth I was still getting 6-7 weeks from a single charged cell. Real world applications, especially in electric cars have moved on quite a big since your oft quoted 'charts'.

Personally I find the competitors to shimano very welcome, because without them Shimano is happy to stand still. With them Di2 Dura Ace is looking to go wireless this year, with a nifty mechanism that emulates a mechanical paddle. And the long awaited Shimano 105 electronic group looks slated for an August release. Thereby putting it in the reach of tight fisted, technology averse luddites. And you have the golf bat fraternity, who are roundly slagged on this forum, who've paid for its development, as first adopters.



https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... ess-51967/

What's not to like!

zenitb
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Re: SRAM new 'AXS' for MTB/road

Postby zenitb » 9 Feb 2019, 11:04am

scottg wrote:.....

The kit is way too expensive for CTC users, notice no 7 speed wireless option.

..very good Scott..!!!!

:-) :-) :-)