Shiny bikes & their advocates

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
PH
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby PH » 13 Feb 2019, 11:18pm

MarcusT wrote:Using the $7,000 bike to shave 60 seconds from a 1 hour ride, is like that guy in a car who passes like a jerk because he really needs to get where he is going. Then after micturating everyone off, he gets to his destination maybe 30 seconds earlier.

I don’t see it like that at all. There is a pleasure in riding a nice bike or driving a good car, that has nothing to do with anyone other than the rider.

thelawnet
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby thelawnet » 13 Feb 2019, 11:40pm

mnichols wrote:If you know the rolling resistance of the tyres and that he's doing 300w wouldn't it be possible to see how much of the difference was down to the tyres?


Well to run some numbers:

300W power
3% drivetrain loss (in either case)

Coefficient of rolling resistance of very fast tubeless tyre - 0.00267 (e.g. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... 00-tl-2018)
CRR of typical cheap puncture resistant tyre, such as are fitted = 0.00621 (comparator https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... -plus-2017)

Expensive bike = 37.27kph
Mid-priced bike = 35.86kph

Hence if CdA is 0.403 m^2, then

CRR of 0.00621 = 35.86kph

Reducing the CRR to 0.00267, gives a speed of 37.1kph

The remaining difference is less than 0.5%, and would be eliminated by very small differences in position.


Also note that small pressure differences could result in significant changes in rolling resistance.

The improved descent time suggests that he gets a much better position on the more expensive bike.

mattsccm
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby mattsccm » 14 Feb 2019, 7:27am

I wonder sometimes if some people here do anything for fun. Sometimes it is nice to say "stuff common sense".
Also, is it valid to question the testers criteria when they are his? To him they were valid, or possibly at the limits of practicality to him.
Its a bloody bike, an item , for most of us, That is a toy.

As a thought, I doubt that you could compare exact like for like in different qualities as things like geometry and materials don't stay the same through the price range. Well not in the same year anyway.

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Cugel
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby Cugel » 14 Feb 2019, 8:14am

mattsccm wrote:I wonder sometimes if some people here do anything for fun. Sometimes it is nice to say "stuff common sense".
Also, is it valid to question the testers criteria when they are his? To him they were valid, or possibly at the limits of practicality to him.
Its a bloody bike, an item , for most of us, That is a toy.

As a thought, I doubt that you could compare exact like for like in different qualities as things like geometry and materials don't stay the same through the price range. Well not in the same year anyway.


Troo, troo - bauble-buying shoppers, lovers of the glittery things, strivers in the competition of who has the shiniest bauble - all of these factors laugh in the face of facts or any kind of attempt to measure the utility of the latest bright shiny bead.

So why do those who love the purchasing pleasure of shiny bauble acquisition feel obliged to arrange spurious and obviously flawed "tests" of their glittery things? One suspects a certain need to fend-off those who feel profligate shopping to be something of an infantile behaviour.

Cugel, trying to hide his own glittery stuff under the edge of the carpet.

pwa
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby pwa » 14 Feb 2019, 8:29am

Very expensive road bikes don't, these days, tend to be shiny. Matt or silk sheen is the order of the day. Shiny was more common when the top end was dominated by Italian steel framed bikes with alloy Campag kit. Nowadays top end bikes look like they are coated in Teflon.

thelawnet
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby thelawnet » 14 Feb 2019, 12:57pm

mattsccm wrote:As a thought, I doubt that you could compare exact like for like in different qualities as things like geometry and materials don't stay the same through the price range. Well not in the same year anyway.


Differing materials is largely what we are testing.

Geometry often does stay the same.

Trek make these frames:

Domane AL - entry level endurance bike, only sold as a complete bike (with Claris, Sora, Tiagra or 105)
Domane SL/SL Disc - carbon endurance frame with Isospeed suspension
Domane SLR/SLR Disc - carbon endurance frame with adjustable suspension, fancier carbon fibre

Emonda ALR/ALR Disc - lightweight alloy frame
Emonda SL/SL Disc - lightweight carbon frame
Emonda SLR/SLR Disc - ultra-light carbon frame in either H2 (standard) or H1 (lower headtube, more aggressive fit)

Madone SL - aero frame, sold only as complete bike
Madone SLR/SLR Disc - fancier carbon etc.

So the Domane AL2 (https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/bike ... Code=black), which is £595 all-in, has the same geometry as the

Domane SLR, which is £4k+ as a full bike, except that they seem to be selling it as frameset-only this year, the complete bikes being only disc models

https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/bike ... grey_black

(note that the Domane SLR is presumably nicer to ride due to its suspension)

I am not sure the Emonda frames have identical geometry, but they are at least designed for the same purpose; it wouldn't be unreasonable to compare between ALR and SLR.

Obviously you get lighter materials on pricier bikes.

hamster
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby hamster » 14 Feb 2019, 1:47pm

RickH wrote:I find my hours still always have 60 minutes in them whatever I'm riding. :wink:

Bicycle Rolling Resistance gives a 5-6W difference, is that really enough to make minutes difference to an otherwise identical setup?


Mine is based on multiple times with the bike on GP4000s and GP4Seasons over the same training loop over the years. The best comparison is near-identical days, three days apart, when I made the tyre swap late-spring. Bike is a 1994 Litespeed Catalyst with 1996 Campag Record, conventional wheels (Ambrosio Excellence rims, 32 spoke, radial front, 3x rear).
GP4Seasons: 1:02-1:03, GP4000sii: 0.59-1:01.

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hondated
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby hondated » 14 Feb 2019, 4:20pm

thelawnet wrote:Oh and make sure your clothes are skin tight, even if you are a fatty.

I'm definitely with you on this point given I seem to be out growing all of my cycling gear :wink: :?

mnichols
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby mnichols » 14 Feb 2019, 8:19pm

thelawnet wrote:
mnichols wrote:If you know the rolling resistance of the tyres and that he's doing 300w wouldn't it be possible to see how much of the difference was down to the tyres?


Well to run some numbers:

300W power
3% drivetrain loss (in either case)

Coefficient of rolling resistance of very fast tubeless tyre - 0.00267 (e.g. https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... 00-tl-2018)
CRR of typical cheap puncture resistant tyre, such as are fitted = 0.00621 (comparator https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.co ... -plus-2017)

Expensive bike = 37.27kph
Mid-priced bike = 35.86kph

Hence if CdA is 0.403 m^2, then

CRR of 0.00621 = 35.86kph

Reducing the CRR to 0.00267, gives a speed of 37.1kph

The remaining difference is less than 0.5%, and would be eliminated by very small differences in position.


Also note that small pressure differences could result in significant changes in rolling resistance.

The improved descent time suggests that he gets a much better position on the more expensive bike.



So, does the maths say that other than the final 0.5% / .17kph the difference is the tyres?

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foxyrider
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby foxyrider » 14 Feb 2019, 8:49pm

I like 'shiny' bikes - well some of them, I have a shiny bike that I built, as a yoof I always aspired to a shiny bike, only as a 'wrong side of fifty' rider have I been able to afford such a beast. My shiny bike is actually shiny, gloss paint, polished ti and the blingest Campag bits - it sort of stands out from the crowd.

I know there are lighter bikes, more expensive bikes and now of course newer bikes. What there aren't are faster bikes - the relative speed of the bike is down to the rider. Yes you can tweak the performance with tyres and position but at the end of the day it's the engine that defines the bikes speed.

So my four year old bike at times goes faster than latest tech bikes costing double the money. At other times it doesn't, but that's me not the bike. If someone wants / can afford to spend silly amounts on a bike, good on 'em but unless they tune the engine to match it won't make a fig of difference.

I'm doing the engine tuning now - on a bike that weighs almost double the play thing, it'll be nice to get out on the fancy stuff, and I will go faster and I shan't be worried that someone else has a more bling bike to ride, if they are fit enough they might be faster than me but don't count on it!
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

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hondated
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby hondated » 14 Feb 2019, 9:19pm

PH wrote:
MarcusT wrote:Using the $7,000 bike to shave 60 seconds from a 1 hour ride, is like that guy in a car who passes like a jerk because he really needs to get where he is going. Then after micturating everyone off, he gets to his destination maybe 30 seconds earlier.

I don’t see it like that at all. There is a pleasure in riding a nice bike or driving a good car, that has nothing to do with anyone other than the rider.

+1 Definitely buy it if I had the money. Would it make me a better rider definitely not. But what it would do it would give me pleasure each time I walked into my garage and saw it. Mind you I am someone who still buys the glossy magazines with photos of top end bikes in them So I guess I am guilty of being indoctrinated by them. :wink: :D

pwa
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2019, 11:35am

I reckon true Bling on bikes disappeared around the year 2000. I mean bling as in eye-catchingly shiny, colourful and decorative. Compared to a Colnago Master Olympic with max paint complexity / chrome and alloy Campag bits, modern high end road bikes look muted, not bling. Whether that is good or bad depends on taste.

Bling:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/eroica ... 966456264/

thelawnet
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby thelawnet » 15 Feb 2019, 11:43am

pwa wrote:I reckon true Bling on bikes disappeared around the year 2000. I mean bling as in eye-catchingly shiny, colourful and decorative. Compared to a Colnago Master Olympic with max paint complexity / chrome and alloy Campag bits, modern high end road bikes look muted, not bling. Whether that is good or bad depends on taste.


I dunno about muted.

An aero bike like this one

Image

Is anything but muted.

There are those 'look at me' 60mm rims, ultra-fat tubes, it seems calculated to be as eye-catchingly hideous as possible.

pwa
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby pwa » 15 Feb 2019, 11:49am

That bike looks purposeful, like an F1 car, but not bling or shiny. If someone has a use for that bike, fine. My legs would not do it justice.

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hondated
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Re: Shiny bikes & their advocates

Postby hondated » 15 Feb 2019, 4:45pm

pwa wrote:I reckon true Bling on bikes disappeared around the year 2000. I mean bling as in eye-catchingly shiny, colourful and decorative. Compared to a Colnago Master Olympic with max paint complexity / chrome and alloy Campag bits, modern high end road bikes look muted, not bling. Whether that is good or bad depends on taste.

Bling:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/eroica ... 966456264/

Totally agree I think thats what they call Bike Porn pwa.

Many years ago I got talking to a Colnago seller at a Triathlon show and seeing my enthusiasm for them he gave me a great catalogue of them. With photos like your I sometimes drawl over it. And I just loved that era of Colnago bikes because of their paint schemes.