Rims with decent braking surface thickness?

[mercalia]

I wonder if CSS rims may be 'bedded in' by some kind of intensive polishing process?

If so, this could avoid the need for a period of use with (expensive, not available for every brake) special brake blocks.

cheers

well I have been using cheapo fibrax pads and my ceramic rims are very polished, didnt wearthe pads down much. The polished rims, thats the problem aint it with rain as neat alloy never get that polished? I remember when steel rims had a mottling texture on them - maybe need that on carbide/ceramic rims to simulate the roughness of neat alloy?

[bgnukem]

Well, to complete this thread, my newly-ordered H Plus Son Archetype rims arrived last Friday and were duly measured.

Braking surface thickness turns out to be ~1.5mm on one side and ~1.3mm on the other, again (badly?) machined sidewalls, despite costing twice as much as the rims previously used (Exal LX17, Rigida Chrina and Kinlin XM250). It appears these probably won't last as long as the preceding Chrina's which cost around a third as much.

'Made in China' stickers also attached, so I guess someone's making a nice profit selling these at sixty quid a pop.

The search for a decent rim continues......

[PH]

well I have been using cheapo fibrax pads and my ceramic rims are very polished, didnt wearthe pads down much. The polished rims, thats the problem aint it with rain as neat alloy never get that polished? I remember when steel rims had a mottling texture on them - maybe need that on carbide/ceramic rims to simulate the roughness of neat alloy?

Just to clarify. what rims do you have? I took your earlier post as a comment on CSS and here you refer to ceramic.

[Brucey]

Well, to complete this thread, my newly-ordered H Plus Son Archetype rims arrived last Friday and were duly measured.

Braking surface thickness turns out to be ~1.5mm on one side and ~1.3mm on the other, again (badly?) machined sidewalls, despite costing twice as much as the rims previously used (Exal LX17, Rigida Chrina and Kinlin XM250). It appears these probably won't last as long as the preceding Chrina's which cost around a third as much.

'Made in China' stickers also attached, so I guess someone's making a nice profit selling these at sixty quid a pop.

The search for a decent rim continues......

Oh dear. Thats not like other Archetypes I have used.

cheers

[geocycle]

I'm a big fan of CSS rims -possible to put more than 20,000 miles on them. The swisstop blue pads got me 15,000 miles per pair -OK I only go slowly! I've never had a problem in the wet with them and they are always silent. Last time my front needed replacing I went for a standard (grizzly) rim and ordinary blocks on Thorn's advice. I really regret doing that as the braking hasn't been as good and the pads wear so quickly (and they are currently squealing). When these ordinary rims wear out I will go back to CSS if they are still available.

[Samuel D]

Well, to complete this thread, my newly-ordered H Plus Son Archetype rims arrived last Friday and were duly measured.

What’s the ERD? And do they suit 12 mm nipples?

[AndyA]

in the rain initially you can get a near heart attack as it takes some time to remove the water: if it starts to rain you can prepare this by putting on the brakes a bit. They seem to work rather well in the damp. One fun aspect is you can give pedestrians a startle as they can shriek

That hasn't been my experience having had them for 10+ years on my most used bike. Initially with the blue pads and after the roughness had worn smooth with Koolstop Salmon pads. In all circumstances I've found them to be comparable to any other rim brake. I've never had an issue with them squealing either.

My experience is much the same as PH.
I have had a couple of pairs of Rigida grizzly carbide rims in use for a few years now on roughstuff bikes. Initially used hard pads (Koolstop green?) to smooth them off, when the braking started to worsen changed over to Koolstop salmon, and everythings fine. One brake (out of 4) squeals just occasionally, I'm never sure why. The rims look much the same now as they did when new; I don't suppose they will last for ever, I guess eventually the (single) eyelets will fail?

I saw a Grizzly rimmed wheel someone had ridden at least 15k miles on with 1.75" tyres pumped to 100psi, full touring load. It made itself into a single wall rim by splitting along the spoke holes on the inside spar of the rim. Still pretty close to true despite that! It was a Spa wheel, might have even been your work

[AndyA]

Does anyone know the thickness of a Mavic A719? That may suit the OP's requirements if it isn't too tinfoilesque

[Des49]

Well, to complete this thread, my newly-ordered H Plus Son Archetype rims arrived last Friday and were duly measured.

Braking surface thickness turns out to be ~1.5mm on one side and ~1.3mm on the other, again (badly?) machined sidewalls, despite costing twice as much as the rims previously used (Exal LX17, Rigida Chrina and Kinlin XM250). It appears these probably won't last as long as the preceding Chrina's which cost around a third as much.

'Made in China' stickers also attached, so I guess someone's making a nice profit selling these at sixty quid a pop.

The search for a decent rim continues......

The thickness of my H Plus Son Archetypes was similar, no more than 1.5mm. In my second season with them on a bike that is well looked after, Swissstop brake pads and not used in the worst weather generally. I am disappointed in the amount of wear I can feel in the rim walls, certainly much better than Mavic Open Pro rims which would have worn out already for sure, rim thickness isn't everything, the metal itself matters.
Also the Son rims are much stiffer and take higher spoke tensions, important for the greater dishing required on some rear wheels.

Agree that at £60 ish per rim the value is poor. Chrinas have to be the best value, they wear better too, but be prepared to struggle fitting tyres.

When my Son rims need replacing I will probably replace like with like and reuse the spokes. Trouble is mine are a grey colour, which looks great, can't seem to find these around now, just black and polished.

[Brucey]

some measurements from 2013 here

https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12916595

including

Mavic OP 1.2mm
DT Swiss RR465 and 415 1.3mm
Velocity A23 1.2mm (I was wrong on that one).
H+ son Archetype 1.4mm
Rigida chrina 1.4mm (I thought this was thicker, I was wrong on that too).

[just in case it isn't obvious the 'I' above is 'thecycleclinic'.]

FWIW the Archetypes that have passed through my hands have measured 1.5mm or more when new. Not great, but about the best of a bad bunch. Modern rims -those that are vaguely lightweight anyway- are basically crap when it comes to braking surface thickness.

Mavic seem to be shooting for ~1.35mm (and regularly failing) with most of their rims. Old style Open Pro were bad enough but new style Open Pro rims are much thinner than that; when new you would describe them as 'worn out' if presented with the measurements....

cheers

[Freddie]

It's not the answer you want, but it might be the answer you need - why not drum brakes? Bypasses all the problems with rim thickness and rebuilding rims. It is a winter bike after all and you say you are slowing down to match the local group you ride with anyway.

Yes, they are heavier, but the weight is at the hub, rather than at the rim (and you can use lightest rims available). Given the time, money and energy you've ploughed into this, I think it is worth approaching the problem from a different (and more practical) angle.

Just a thought.

[531colin]

I saw a Grizzly rimmed wheel someone had ridden at least 15k miles on with 1.75" tyres pumped to 100psi, full touring load. It made itself into a single wall rim by splitting along the spoke holes on the inside spar of the rim. Still pretty close to true despite that! It was a Spa wheel, might have even been your work

I'm probably safe for a while then, if they are going to do 15k. I had a look in the shed, one set of carbide Grizzleys have quite prominent "bumps" where the load on the nipple/eyelet is distorting the rim, they happen to be 26". Two 700c sets, one carbide and one plain don't have any obvious "bumps" at all. Got another pair of Grizzley wheels in store, I couldn't be fagged to dig them out. Makes it less remarkable that my Kinlin disc specific rims (which are also single eyelet) don't have "bumps", which was why I started looking in the first place.
I suppose it proves that "things vary".

[mig]

what sort of rim thicknesses feature on ,say, a factory built mavic wheel?

[bgnukem]

It's not the answer you want, but it might be the answer you need - why not drum brakes? Bypasses all the problems with rim thickness and rebuilding rims. It is a winter bike after all and you say you are slowing down to match the local group you ride with anyway.

Yes, they are heavier, but the weight is at the hub, rather than at the rim (and you can use lightest rims available). Given the time, money and energy you've ploughed into this, I think it is worth approaching the problem from a different (and more practical) angle.

Just a thought.

Not a bad idea, but despite being a winter bike it gets ridden fast (getting to and from the start of rides, usually 15-25 miles away from home) and longish rides (recent week's runs have been 98, 73 and 93 miles) so I don't want to add too much weight. Discs would be a lighter answer and I'm currently due to build up a new bike with disc brakes, but I do like the comfy, springy forks of my old Dawes...

[bgnukem]

Well, to complete this thread, my newly-ordered H Plus Son Archetype rims arrived last Friday and were duly measured.

Braking surface thickness turns out to be ~1.5mm on one side and ~1.3mm on the other, again (badly?) machined sidewalls, despite costing twice as much as the rims previously used (Exal LX17, Rigida Chrina and Kinlin XM250). It appears these probably won't last as long as the preceding Chrina's which cost around a third as much.

'Made in China' stickers also attached, so I guess someone's making a nice profit selling these at sixty quid a pop.

The search for a decent rim continues......

The thickness of my H Plus Son Archetypes was similar, no more than 1.5mm. In my second season with them on a bike that is well looked after, Swissstop brake pads and not used in the worst weather generally. I am disappointed in the amount of wear I can feel in the rim walls, certainly much better than Mavic Open Pro rims which would have worn out already for sure, rim thickness isn't everything, the metal itself matters.
Also the Son rims are much stiffer and take higher spoke tensions, important for the greater dishing required on some rear wheels.

Agree that at £60 ish per rim the value is poor. Chrinas have to be the best value, they wear better too, but be prepared to struggle fitting tyres.

When my Son rims need replacing I will probably replace like with like and reuse the spokes. Trouble is mine are a grey colour, which looks great, can't seem to find these around now, just black and polished.

The Chrinas I've used before were not too bad, about 1.5mm thick and lasted a few years or more. Seemed reasonably hard wearing. They're just too narrow for 32mm tyres really, plus the tales of falling quality after the Ryde rebranding put me off a bit, which is why I changed.

I reckon Exal LX17s are better value than Archetypes though, given they have similar sidewall thicknesses (down to 1.35mm in places) but cost half as much, same 17mm internal width but 575g vs 490g.