Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

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JohnW
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Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby JohnW » 13 Sep 2020, 11:53am

Brucey -
Discussions with cycling companions from those days (they're still cycling companions) have jogged me to remember.
We're talking early 70s, so some hubs would be survivors from the late 60s.
As an aside, I'd ridden through the late 50s and early 6os on the old built-up steel small-flange hubs! Always single speed, for financial reasons!
Back to the subject.

Thread a 6" nail into the 'other end' of the hub - head first - and it caught on the back of the cup to be removed.
The hole in the cup was slightly smaller than the internal diameter of the axle........very slightly and the protruding lip was minimal.
(Apparently, sometimes the hole in the cup was larger than the internal diameter of the hub, and we just couldn't do it then).
Then with care and bad language whack the pointed end of the nail with a hammer - gently with little, frequent whacks.
I remember now that I had a 6" nail just for the purpose - I think I'd done something to the nail-head with a file, but can't remember what.
I do also remember that on one really knackered hub I saved the 'other side' cup by sawing through the alu with a hacksaw.

I can only find one of the cups now, but I haven't got an old Normandy hub to check on.
I've done this more recently with Campag hubs - Mercian used to have bearing cups for Campag, specially made - 10+ years ago? - the Records were solid, ground and the Tipos were pressed like the Normandys, but made from quality steel, not ginger biscuits!
It seemed that the Campag hubs were designed to have cups replaced, and were relatively easy.

I tell you - the Campag hubs were six or seven times the price of the Normandys, but well worth it.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 13 Sep 2020, 1:14pm

ah yes, the 6" nail! BITD I had a few sets of campag hubs and changed the races in those and it was relatively easy because the hubshell is generously undercut behind the cups. I offered to do the races in a chum's hub and in return he offered the services of his university technicians to make a 'better tool' and the brief was issued ' a bit like a 8" nail, but stronger' and duly the thing turned up , nicely turned and not only that it was quenched and tempered tool steel to boot. Many races were changed, and I still have the tool. I even converted a Nuovo Tipo front hub to 'Record' specification by installing cups, cones, balls and oiler clip from one to another. (You can't do that with rear hubs because the the cups are a different diameter.)

However the tool wasn't perfect; irritatingly it was (is) a bit short, which means that the last hammer blow (and any betweentimes that cause the drift to slip sideways) often squashes your finger and thumb against the end of the hub. I can testify that some campag hubshells have razor-sharp edges and it can be very painful... The other problem was that the cup never came out straight which meant the whole process takes much longer than it ought to, and risks stretching the housing if the cup gets badly cocked.

Still, it was all I used for about 20 years. I could never get it to work on a Normandy hub 'as is' though, but all mine were 1970s ones. In the 1960s maybe they were slightly different; at that time you could apparently buy spare cups so presumably they were designed to be changed; however there certainly hasn't been a generous undercut behind the cup in those which I've seen .

What set me thinking was the ease with which welded cups come out of hubshells; one good clonk and out they come; a good part of this is because you are getting a square hit on the cup. Hence I am (finally) better exploring expanding drifts, simply because they should make the job easier. Ditto the tool for making the undercuts; I made them before but it was difficult; now it should be easier.

FWIW I've probably had to change as many Campag cups as Normandy ones, in the same kind of service; the campag ones have usually corroded, and the Normandy ones have cracked. BTW I'm not saying that the Normandy ones won't corrode, its just that this is usually the least of your worries.... :wink: :lol: :roll:

If I succeed I shall get some satisfaction from having made good; more than I would (ab)using one of the several sets of campag hubs I have kicking around.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JohnW
Posts: 6418
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby JohnW » 13 Sep 2020, 4:18pm

Hmmmm - Brucey - you're triggering memories to doubt my memories :roll: .
I've found the 6" nail, and indeed it is an 8" nail - but my memory is more Campag than Maillard. :?
There's racking of brains going on here..........trouble is that it's such a long time ago, and the world goes round.

I've just been to look in my "hubs" bucket - stuff not used for years - no Normandy rear hubs or shells.
There's a Maillard small-flange alu front hub - not branded 'Normandy' - no idea where that came from - last time I rode small-flange hubs was in my built-up-steel-hub days, pre 1965. I've found, much to my surprise, a spindle-less 'Sunshine' front hub, and the ball-cups would certainly come out using the 6" nail method. I can't remember where that came from. :?

I also found a clutch of bottom-bracket spindles, cups and lock-rings - all used - why I kept them I don't know. They're all certainly from before 1996. Mostly Stronglight, one Dura-Ace spindle (the most recent) and one Campag.

I also found a 30(ish) years old Campag seat-pin which I thought I'd lost :D - remember them? - they were the "best seatpins ever" - thanks for stimulating that search Brucey!

Brucey
Posts: 40455
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 14 Sep 2020, 8:15pm

seat pin (provided the lower cradles are steel, not aluminium) is a good find.

Have tested the Normandy rear hub bearings with potential substitute cones according to the method described here

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=120937&p=1221303

and this time I blacked up the cup as well, and got a reasonably nice track in the cup;

Image01822.jpg
my cup runneth over with balls


which is sufficiently uniform, and at about the right angle etc so as give encouragement. The bearings were also smooth-running under preload with no signs of scuffing etc, so I think these cones are 'goers'.

BTW to determine the contact angle of the bearing accurately, you can drop a single loose ball into the cup once the track mark is made, and angle the hub such that the ball is exactly centred over the track mark when viewed from above. The angle of the hubshell then shows the contact angle of the bearing quite clearly.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JohnW
Posts: 6418
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby JohnW » 15 Sep 2020, 12:07am

The Campag seatpin - lower cradles definitely steel - as my magnet is my witness.
It is probably finished to mimic alu, and it's certainly well done - it surprised me - I'd never imagined that.
The problem with it was that it didn't lay-back far enough for Brooks saddles.

You've gone further with a Normandy hub than I ever did Brucey - they weren't worth the bother - at a decent repair man's hourly rate, how much would all this attention to a lousy hub cost? My solution was to afford Campag - and that needed some thought in those days! I suppose the question is - why are you bothering? - is it a restoration job?

Brucey
Posts: 40455
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 15 Sep 2020, 12:28am

The campag seat pin cradles are -when steel- matt chrome finished. The upper and lower cradles look at first as if you can swap the upper parts front to back, and the lower parts left for right. In fact you can do neither thing if you want to get a Brooks saddle as far back as possible; with the cradle parts correctly assembled the tapered front portion of the Brooks rails can enter the front of the clamp, because the openings for the rails are effectively oval rather than round at the front. With the correct assembly you can get about 3/8" more setback than otherwise. Misassembly of this seat pin design is commonplace.

BTW I just took an 'old' Normandy hub apart, one with round holes in the flanges. I think it is from the 1960s. There is no undercut behind the cups, so their removal would be just as problematic as in the 1970s ones I have been messing about with.

I've done quite a lot of miles using Normandy hubs, and when they are in good shape they are 'good enough' in the way they work, for me. If I can extend the intervals between overhauls/repairs I shall be quite happy. I've got quite a few of them to go at. There's some satisfaction to be had from 'making better'...

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JohnW
Posts: 6418
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby JohnW » 15 Sep 2020, 12:42am

Brucey wrote:The campag seat pin cradles are -when steel- matt chrome finished. The upper and lower cradles look at first as if you can swap the upper parts front to back, and the lower parts left for right. In fact you can do neither thing if you want to get a Brooks saddle as far back as possible; with the cradle parts correctly assembled the tapered front portion of the Brooks rails can enter the front of the clamp, because the openings for the rails are effectively oval rather than round at the front. With the correct assembly you can get about 3/8" more setback than otherwise. Misassembly of this seat pin design is commonplace...................cheers

I'll look into that.
Brucey wrote:..................I've done quite a lot of miles using Normandy hubs, and when they are in good shape they are 'good enough' in the way they work, for me. If I can extend the intervals between overhauls/repairs I shall be quite happy. I've got quite a few of them to go at. There's some satisfaction to be had from 'making better'...
cheers

Yes, I can understand that.
All my Normandy hubs had the 'oval' holes in the flange - they were all small flange..