Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

[JohnW]

Brucey -
Discussions with cycling companions from those days (they're still cycling companions) have jogged me to remember.
We're talking early 70s, so some hubs would be survivors from the late 60s.
As an aside, I'd ridden through the late 50s and early 6os on the old built-up steel small-flange hubs! Always single speed, for financial reasons!
Back to the subject.

Thread a 6" nail into the 'other end' of the hub - head first - and it caught on the back of the cup to be removed.
The hole in the cup was slightly smaller than the internal diameter of the axle........very slightly and the protruding lip was minimal.
(Apparently, sometimes the hole in the cup was larger than the internal diameter of the hub, and we just couldn't do it then).
Then with care and bad language whack the pointed end of the nail with a hammer - gently with little, frequent whacks.
I remember now that I had a 6" nail just for the purpose - I think I'd done something to the nail-head with a file, but can't remember what.
I do also remember that on one really knackered hub I saved the 'other side' cup by sawing through the alu with a hacksaw.

I can only find one of the cups now, but I haven't got an old Normandy hub to check on.
I've done this more recently with Campag hubs - Mercian used to have bearing cups for Campag, specially made - 10+ years ago? - the Records were solid, ground and the Tipos were pressed like the Normandys, but made from quality steel, not ginger biscuits!
It seemed that the Campag hubs were designed to have cups replaced, and were relatively easy.

I tell you - the Campag hubs were six or seven times the price of the Normandys, but well worth it.

[Brucey]

ah yes, the 6" nail! BITD I had a few sets of campag hubs and changed the races in those and it was relatively easy because the hubshell is generously undercut behind the cups. I offered to do the races in a chum's hub and in return he offered the services of his university technicians to make a 'better tool' and the brief was issued ' a bit like a 8" nail, but stronger' and duly the thing turned up , nicely turned and not only that it was quenched and tempered tool steel to boot. Many races were changed, and I still have the tool. I even converted a Nuovo Tipo front hub to 'Record' specification by installing cups, cones, balls and oiler clip from one to another. (You can't do that with rear hubs because the the cups are a different diameter.)

However the tool wasn't perfect; irritatingly it was (is) a bit short, which means that the last hammer blow (and any betweentimes that cause the drift to slip sideways) often squashes your finger and thumb against the end of the hub. I can testify that some campag hubshells have razor-sharp edges and it can be very painful... The other problem was that the cup never came out straight which meant the whole process takes much longer than it ought to, and risks stretching the housing if the cup gets badly cocked.

Still, it was all I used for about 20 years. I could never get it to work on a Normandy hub 'as is' though, but all mine were 1970s ones. In the 1960s maybe they were slightly different; at that time you could apparently buy spare cups so presumably they were designed to be changed; however there certainly hasn't been a generous undercut behind the cup in those which I've seen .

What set me thinking was the ease with which welded cups come out of hubshells; one good clonk and out they come; a good part of this is because you are getting a square hit on the cup. Hence I am (finally) better exploring expanding drifts, simply because they should make the job easier. Ditto the tool for making the undercuts; I made them before but it was difficult; now it should be easier.

FWIW I've probably had to change as many Campag cups as Normandy ones, in the same kind of service; the campag ones have usually corroded, and the Normandy ones have cracked. BTW I'm not saying that the Normandy ones won't corrode, its just that this is usually the least of your worries....

If I succeed I shall get some satisfaction from having made good; more than I would (ab)using one of the several sets of campag hubs I have kicking around.

cheers

[JohnW]

Hmmmm - Brucey - you're triggering memories to doubt my memories .
I've found the 6" nail, and indeed it is an 8" nail - but my memory is more Campag than Maillard.
There's racking of brains going on here..........trouble is that it's such a long time ago, and the world goes round.

I've just been to look in my "hubs" bucket - stuff not used for years - no Normandy rear hubs or shells.
There's a Maillard small-flange alu front hub - not branded 'Normandy' - no idea where that came from - last time I rode small-flange hubs was in my built-up-steel-hub days, pre 1965. I've found, much to my surprise, a spindle-less 'Sunshine' front hub, and the ball-cups would certainly come out using the 6" nail method. I can't remember where that came from.

I also found a clutch of bottom-bracket spindles, cups and lock-rings - all used - why I kept them I don't know. They're all certainly from before 1996. Mostly Stronglight, one Dura-Ace spindle (the most recent) and one Campag.

I also found a 30(ish) years old Campag seat-pin which I thought I'd lost - remember them? - they were the "best seatpins ever" - thanks for stimulating that search Brucey!

[Brucey]

seat pin (provided the lower cradles are steel, not aluminium) is a good find.

Have tested the Normandy rear hub bearings with potential substitute cones according to the method described here

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=120937&p=1221303

and this time I blacked up the cup as well, and got a reasonably nice track in the cup;

my cup runneth over with balls

which is sufficiently uniform, and at about the right angle etc so as give encouragement. The bearings were also smooth-running under preload with no signs of scuffing etc, so I think these cones are 'goers'.

BTW to determine the contact angle of the bearing accurately, you can drop a single loose ball into the cup once the track mark is made, and angle the hub such that the ball is exactly centred over the track mark when viewed from above. The angle of the hubshell then shows the contact angle of the bearing quite clearly.

cheers

[JohnW]

The Campag seatpin - lower cradles definitely steel - as my magnet is my witness.
It is probably finished to mimic alu, and it's certainly well done - it surprised me - I'd never imagined that.
The problem with it was that it didn't lay-back far enough for Brooks saddles.

You've gone further with a Normandy hub than I ever did Brucey - they weren't worth the bother - at a decent repair man's hourly rate, how much would all this attention to a lousy hub cost? My solution was to afford Campag - and that needed some thought in those days! I suppose the question is - why are you bothering? - is it a restoration job?

[Brucey]

The campag seat pin cradles are -when steel- matt chrome finished. The upper and lower cradles look at first as if you can swap the upper parts front to back, and the lower parts left for right. In fact you can do neither thing if you want to get a Brooks saddle as far back as possible; with the cradle parts correctly assembled the tapered front portion of the Brooks rails can enter the front of the clamp, because the openings for the rails are effectively oval rather than round at the front. With the correct assembly you can get about 3/8" more setback than otherwise. Misassembly of this seat pin design is commonplace.

BTW I just took an 'old' Normandy hub apart, one with round holes in the flanges. I think it is from the 1960s. There is no undercut behind the cups, so their removal would be just as problematic as in the 1970s ones I have been messing about with.

I've done quite a lot of miles using Normandy hubs, and when they are in good shape they are 'good enough' in the way they work, for me. If I can extend the intervals between overhauls/repairs I shall be quite happy. I've got quite a few of them to go at. There's some satisfaction to be had from 'making better'...

cheers

[JohnW]

The campag seat pin cradles are -when steel- matt chrome finished. The upper and lower cradles look at first as if you can swap the upper parts front to back, and the lower parts left for right. In fact you can do neither thing if you want to get a Brooks saddle as far back as possible; with the cradle parts correctly assembled the tapered front portion of the Brooks rails can enter the front of the clamp, because the openings for the rails are effectively oval rather than round at the front. With the correct assembly you can get about 3/8" more setback than otherwise. Misassembly of this seat pin design is commonplace...................cheers

I'll look into that.

..................I've done quite a lot of miles using Normandy hubs, and when they are in good shape they are 'good enough' in the way they work, for me. If I can extend the intervals between overhauls/repairs I shall be quite happy. I've got quite a few of them to go at. There's some satisfaction to be had from 'making better'...
cheers

Yes, I can understand that.
All my Normandy hubs had the 'oval' holes in the flange - they were all small flange..

[Brucey]

some more anomalies in Maillard hubs

From the left

- 'Maillard' SF front hub in the 'old' pattern, date code Wk35, 1981, with the 'circle m' Maillard motif. I don't remember seeing this combination previously, I thought the change in motif came with the change in hubshell design in SF hubs

- 'Atom' branded front hub, with date code P 20 78 (week 20, 1978) the significance of the 'P' is unknown

- 'Sachs' branded rear hub (with non-standard spacing, it had been used as a singlespeed hub). Where the date code would normally be it says '6V' and '6X'.

I have always supposed that '6V' meant it was a six-speed hub. Not sure what the 6X is meant to be. IIRC these hubs date from the late 1980s or early 1990s.

Additional prefix letters in the date code are not unknown; for example I have a Maillard SF hub here with 'K 15 87' on it. Again week 15, 1987, but the significance of the 'K' is not known.

cheers

[atoz]

The Campag seatpin - lower cradles definitely steel - as my magnet is my witness.
It is probably finished to mimic alu, and it's certainly well done - it surprised me - I'd never imagined that.
The problem with it was that it didn't lay-back far enough for Brooks saddles.

You've gone further with a Normandy hub than I ever did Brucey - they weren't worth the bother - at a decent repair man's hourly rate, how much would all this attention to a lousy hub cost? My solution was to afford Campag - and that needed some thought in those days! I suppose the question is - why are you bothering? - is it a restoration job?

I've never had the large flange Normandy type- only had the small flange Atom. Still have a front wheel with one, but not a lot of use since I saw the light and invested in Campag, and much later, Shimano Ultegra. My Campag Tipos (large and small flange varieties) are still going strong after only 35 years. Small flange Tipo were originally standard kit on my now ancient CB Dalesman, where they still reside.

[JohnW]

The Campag seatpin - lower cradles definitely steel - as my magnet is my witness.
It is probably finished to mimic alu, and it's certainly well done - it surprised me - I'd never imagined that.
The problem with it was that it didn't lay-back far enough for Brooks saddles.

You've gone further with a Normandy hub than I ever did Brucey - they weren't worth the bother - at a decent repair man's hourly rate, how much would all this attention to a lousy hub cost? My solution was to afford Campag - and that needed some thought in those days! I suppose the question is - why are you bothering? - is it a restoration job?

I've never had the large flange Normandy type- only had the small flange Atom. Still have a front wheel with one, but not a lot of use since I saw the light and invested in Campag, and much later, Shimano Ultegra. My Campag Tipos (large and small flange varieties) are still going strong after only 35 years. Small flange Tipo were originally standard kit on my now ancient CB Dalesman, where they still reside.

Your experience is similar - in fact identical - with mine.
I've had Tipos -they're probably also 30 years old now. I got some replacement bearing cups from Mercian about 10 or 15 years ago (Mercian had them made for them, by a local engineering company). My other Campag hubs are Record large flange - one rear has the Mercian bearing cups and still going strong - I think they've seen two sets of rims out so far.
I have a pair of 30-ish years old (black anodised) Dura-ace hubs which so far are doing as well as the Campags.

[Kekec1965]

Hi Brucey,

Trying to understand more about the hub/wheel that is a part of a vintage bike I recently acquired (C Bertrand) > guess is one of the Normandy/Maillard branded as Le Tour from 1976. Would it be ordinary to have threads on both sides, Regina 5sp currently on drive side with threads on left?

Here is the image of the hub (laced to Staral 27 1 1/4 wheel)

Many thanks for any info

[Brucey]

'Le Tour' was indeed one of the brandings used on hubs of this type. Rear hubs were available in

- geared (threads on one side of the hubshell only)
- fixed/free (freewheel threads on one side, fixed sprocket threads (including LH threaded lockring portion) on the other)
- double-fixed

variants, in order of decreasing popularity. IIRC the fixed/free variant, when built to 5s/120mm, placed the fixed gear sprocket in about the right place so that it would line up with one chainring from a double chainset. For a long time is was popular to run a fixed gear in the winter and run derailleur gears in the summer, and the fixed/free hub allowed you to do that.

cheers

[Kekec1965]

Thanks for your reply, Brucey.

[Brucey]

thinking about the Normandy double-fixed hubs, I have a vague recollection that the last ones of these I saw for sale (in about 1988...?) may have had plastic dustcaps rather than pressed steel ones. Does anyone else remember this?

cheers