Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

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JohnW
Posts: 6419
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby JohnW » 23 Aug 2020, 7:12pm

Brucey wrote:
JohnW wrote:Who remembers the excellent Ron Kitchen?....


is he the 'cooking version' of Ron Kitching...? :wink:

cheers

:lol: :lol: :lol:
........but...........explain yourself sir!

Brucey
Posts: 40650
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 23 Aug 2020, 11:24pm

just a terrible pun really...

BTW my habit now is to replace pressed steel cups in such hubs, where possible, by setting them on a bed of epoxy resin. In older maillard and Normandy hubs the cup is otherwise unsupported 'in the corner' i.e. where the highest load is. Epoxy resin isn't super strong per se but since the resin is surrounded on all sides then the support it might offer may be dependant on the bulk modulus, which is pretty high. It might do some good and it probably can't do any harm anyway.

cheers
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iandusud
Posts: 473
Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 1:35pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby iandusud » 24 Aug 2020, 8:47am

Brucey wrote:
JohnW wrote:Who remembers the excellent Ron Kitchen?....


is he the 'cooking version' of Ron Kitching...? :wink:

cheers


Out of interest what happened to Ron Kitching? I disappeared off to France in the early 90s and when I returned to the UK 20 years later R K who had been part of cycling history in the UK were no more.

Also I have noticed that there is a plant hire company based in Harrogate that goes by the name of Kitching. Surely not a coincidence? Not a common name.

JohnW
Posts: 6419
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby JohnW » 24 Aug 2020, 10:13am

iandusud wrote:
JohnW wrote:Who remembers the excellent Ron Kitchen?....
Out of interest what happened to Ron Kitching? I disappeared off to France in the early 90s and when I returned to the UK 20 years later R K who had been part of cycling history in the UK were no more.

Also I have noticed that there is a plant hire company based in Harrogate that goes by the name of Kitching. Surely not a coincidence? Not a common name.

I think Ron Kitchen just retired.
I've no knowledge of the plant hire company.
Sorry - someone who knows will probably post on here, and tell us.

julianm
Posts: 136
Joined: 6 Jun 2011, 8:13pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby julianm » 24 Aug 2020, 10:31am

I bought a second hand set of time trial wheels with Mavic sprint rims & they had the 700 hubs & they were lovely - can't believe I got away with 28 spokes!
When Ron Kitching stopped ( not sure why) there was a big sell off at the Harrogate warehouse. I think it must have been advertised in Cycling Weekly. I got there to find a big crowd of cyclists, some clutching catalogues, seeking a bargain or two. The operators opened up a door to the horror of many who had been queuing at the wrong door!
Anyway, once inside it was soon apparent that the few chaps who were there to take the money had no idea at all about anything to do with cycling, but tried their best if you could point at something & said `I'll have that please`.
Pricing was interesting, in that once you had your pile of trophies, it was a matter of 'what's it worth to you then?`
I got a big roll of rim tape. bar tape galore gloves & some other small stuff. I don't know what people would have paid for some of the frames & wheels etc. If you had the cash you could have bought a real stock of stuff for reselling.
I once had dinner with Ron but that's another story.

Carlton green
Posts: 833
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Carlton green » 24 Aug 2020, 10:59am

Brucey wrote:
BTW my habit now is to replace pressed steel cups in such hubs, where possible, by setting them on a bed of epoxy resin. In older maillard and Normandy hubs the cup is otherwise unsupported 'in the corner' i.e. where the highest load is. Epoxy resin isn't super strong per se but since the resin is surrounded on all sides then the support it might offer may be dependant on the bulk modulus, which is pretty high. It might do some good and it probably can't do any harm anyway.

cheers


I’m just wondering about replacement cup availability. Where does one find replacement cups and what sort of price should one expect to pay?

What type (brand, etc) of epoxy resin do you use?

My thanks in anticipation of your responses.

JohnW
Posts: 6419
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby JohnW » 24 Aug 2020, 11:57am

Carlton green wrote:
Brucey wrote:
BTW my habit now is to replace pressed steel cups in such hubs, where possible, by setting them on a bed of epoxy resin. In older maillard and Normandy hubs the cup is otherwise unsupported 'in the corner' i.e. where the highest load is. Epoxy resin isn't super strong per se but since the resin is surrounded on all sides then the support it might offer may be dependant on the bulk modulus, which is pretty high. It might do some good and it probably can't do any harm anyway.

cheers


I’m just wondering about replacement cup availability. Where does one find replacement cups and what sort of price should one expect to pay?

What type (brand, etc) of epoxy resin do you use?

My thanks in anticipation of your responses.


As I said above, I get my replacement Normandy bearing cups from the other side of a hub that has destroyed it's block-side bearing cup.
I found the Normandy hubs so bad that I wrote them off decades ago.
Replacing with a decent hub will be far less effort and bother.

Some long established traditional bike shops may have a trash bucket full of old knackered parts, and there may be one there. My LBS will have some - with a warning not to use the part!

If you let me have your full name and address I'll post you one..........but honestly, not worth the effort. If the rim is as good as the hub, it may wear out before you get to the chip-shop! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I used to ride a green Carlton (Clubman) in the 1960s - it was bought as a ready built - but not Normandy hubs. Steel hubs and steel rims. The rims were yuk, and soon became dinted - I got some replacements built at Pennine, and the hubs were 'Milremo' and that rear lasted as long as the new Milremo rim!

I loved that bike - it saw me all over the Dales, and served me through my courting days - but a motorist killed it by driving on the wrong side of the road - didn't do my leg much good, either.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 24 Aug 2020, 4:02pm

Carlton green wrote:I’m just wondering about replacement cup availability. Where does one find replacement cups and what sort of price should one expect to pay?


as already described upthread they are easily removed from later versions of Maillard (Sachs-Maillard) hubs. Since I have little interest in small flange hubs of this type, and the bearings are the same, I don't mind removing the cups from such hubs. New cups etc were apparently available for 'Normandy' hubs in the 1960s, but later on such spare parts were not easily sourced.

What type (brand, etc) of epoxy resin do you use? .


I think a filled epoxy of some kind would be best, but almost anything is likely to be better than nothing.

cheers
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Carlton green
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Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Carlton green » 24 Aug 2020, 4:09pm

Ah, thank you, so it’s ‘simply’ a case of finding scrapped or second hand hubs from somewhere and then breaking them apart for parts.

Brucey
Posts: 40650
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 24 Aug 2020, 9:45pm

Carlton green wrote:Ah, thank you, so it’s ‘simply’ a case of finding scrapped or second hand hubs from somewhere and then breaking them apart for parts.


Yep. In hubs made after ~1983 this is very much easier; the hubshell castings in these hubs allow much improved access to the back of the cups. In earlier hubs it can be an absolute pig to get the cups out. Well, get them out intact anyway...

The method (with the later hubs) is to use a something like the open end of a large socket to support the hubshell, and then to use a drift to push the cup out. This is best done in stages, working on alternate sides, so the cup doesn't end up 'cocked' to one side too badly. Sometimes you need to jam something (like a piece of old spoke) alongside the drift so that it doesn't slip off the edge of the cup bore; if it does, you may not get a firm 'hit' on it. A drift that is 10mm dia will fit through the cup opening in both front and rear hubs; the end can be ground to a slight angle and this will help it drive the cup.

If you get fancy there are tools with split collets and expanding ends etc which will provide a square push to the cup; however such tools are rarely 'one size fits all' and every other cup I come across (between hub brands) has a different sized hole in it, so you might end up needing a lot of different tools this way.

With earlier hubs you often need to excavate a pocket behind the cup before you can get any tool on it. With a failed cup it is often much quicker to weld something to the cup and then drift the cup out. However if you are having a bad day with the welder, you can very easily damage the hub this way (ask me how I know this.... :roll: ).

BTW I have a foolish liking for these hubs simply because I used them in my youth; goodness knows how but I even raced on them, and not without some success. They are, if you like, both cheap/available enough to use on a retro type bike today (whereas I worry about wrecking nice campag hubs in everyday use) and perhaps Normandy hubs are -like many things which seem to go from 'commonplace' to 'comparatively rare' quite quickly- may be 'the antiques of tomorrow', who knows?

cheers
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Gearoidmuar
Posts: 2228
Joined: 29 Sep 2007, 7:35pm
Location: Cork, Ireland. Corcaigh, Éire má tá Gaeilge agat.

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Gearoidmuar » 24 Aug 2020, 9:50pm

There is a large pond full of birds in Cork, called the Lough.
In Cork, when Maillard was prominent, it was generally pronounced as Mallard.
I was in Harding's bike shop in Cork maybe about 1990 when Victor, the assistant asked George Harding, the owner, if he'd seen a Mallard block lying around.
No, says George. Try the Lough.

Brucey
Posts: 40650
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 24 Aug 2020, 10:08pm

when he said that, was he absolutely quackers by any chance.... :wink:

cheers
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Brucey
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Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 12 Sep 2020, 8:34pm

A tool for helping with cup removal:

Because I am a Grade A certified Gumby I recently built a wheel on a Normandy hub that 'didn't feel that bad'. Needless to say when I came to do what I should have done to start with (i.e. inspect and service the bearings) I found that the RH cup was jiggered, and that being a mid-1970s hub, there was no undercut behind the cup, so no way to get a tool on the cup. I have welded cups to steel rods and then driven them out before now;

Image01800.jpg
dreadful MIG welding; good enough to drive the cup out


However it doesn't always go exactly to plan and it isn't as easy as driving cups out as when hubs have an undercut behind the cup. So I have made undercuts in situ before now (using various methods) and it has never been easy or quick. I have long hankered after a tool to do the job properly. Today I made one and used it.

Image01817.jpg
About fifteen minutes before this photo, it had just been an innocent pedal spindle


The tool above has a guide groove which sets the depth of the cut inside the hubshell. I made this tool by (creatively) using just a drill and an angle grinder. Pedal spindle steel is pretty hard and hubshell aluminium is pretty soft, so I expect this tool will last a few goes, and of course it can be resharpened if necessary.

Image01819.jpg
Before use of tool


Image01820.jpg
After use of tool


Image01821.jpg
After manufacture and use of flared drift


A very simple flared drift was made using a length of 10mm OD ~2mm wall steel tube. The end of the tube was slotted using a hacksaw and then flared/wedged in situ using a large #2 point phillips screwdriver. To my surprise this improvised tool has worked perfectly, twice so far. I expected it not to be strong enough, and maybe it won't be always, who knows?

Anyway making both tools, using them on two hubs and fitting replacement cups (with epoxy resin ) in both took about two hours. I don't always get as much done in that time!

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JohnW
Posts: 6419
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby JohnW » 13 Sep 2020, 12:00am

That's interesting Brucey.
As mentioned previously on this thread, I've removed these bearing cups several times in the past, but for the life of me I cannot remember how.

I do remember that usually the block-side bearing cup has self destructed miles from home, once with loaded panniers on the bike. I could remove the 'other side' bearing cup for re-use by cutting it out - - the hub being kapudtt anyway.

I did that in every case, and re-used serviceable 'other side' bearing cups hubs which were otherwise serviceable.

How I took collapsed cups out in order to replace them (i.e. without destroying the hub), I just cannot remember...........I repaired two hubs this way. I can't remember having any trouble.

I still have two used but serviceable bearing cups.

I may be giving the impression that I did this often and many times. In fact I think I only did it four times - continuing to buy Normandy hubs after the first failure would have defied common sense.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Normandy hubs; maillard in many guises....

Postby Brucey » 13 Sep 2020, 7:50am

I was wondering how you did it too....

I am of course operating in defiance of common sense by continuing to flog this dead horse; but I keep thinking it must be possible to make this arrangement work better. After all, shimano hubs use pressed steel cups (up to and including Ultegra and XT I think) and they have no reputation for cracked cups. Shame the cups are (I think) a different size, otherwise I might try fitting those; the difference must be in the cups themselves and/or the way they are fitted.

On the latter point, the hub in the photos above is an early Sachs-Maillard branded hub, from about 1982 (I will confirm this ; edit; actually Wk13, 1983). This was made before the casting was revised to the 'internally ribbed' type (which allows easy access behind the cups, and supports them better too) and I expected it to be the same inside as older (1970s) hubs; but it isn't. In this hub there is a third style of cup recess, with a single bevel in the recess (in fairness I have never changed a cup in a 1950s or 1960s Normandy hub; their recesses may be different again for all I know; but they do not allow easy access in all that I have seen) . In the photo above with the cup out of the hubshell, you can see a clean line in the recess; this is where the curved back of the cup has made a tangential contact with the bevel in the recess.

The bevelled recess perhaps explains how this hub managed to have really severe cracking in the cup, but it had clearly been used for a time with the cracking present, without falling apart; I think the bevel didn't prevent the (probably lousy quality) cup from cracking, but did perhaps support the remains well enough to stave off total collapse for a while.

My 'plan of improvement' is to have a many -pronged attack ( i.e. make changes in several areas) and hopefully end up with a more reliable hub. For example;

1) Use outrigger bearing under the freewheel; this should help axles out and also reduce some of the worst loads on the RH hub bearing.
2) Use improved cones; smoother ones, which also use a better contact angle in the bearings
3) Use better bearing adjustment; I think the majority of these hubs (esp in QR form) have been run with excess preload, which must shorten the life of the bearings.(*)
4) Use better quality cups. Still working on this one; thicker cups are fitted in some far eastern hubs, but I don't know if they are actually better, and/or whether they will work with the cones I have in mind.
5) Use better quality cup seating; cups can be bedded on a seat including epoxy resin, for better support.

In fairness I doubt very much that I'll be able to elevate these hubs to Campagnolo-esque levels of smoothness and reliability (axles excepted perhaps) but I don't see why they can't be made at least as reliable as shimano hubs....?

(*) on the subject of bearing adjustment; I can well remember my horror at finding pitted cones in my first set of Normandy hubs. Even as a spotty yoof, I realised that the QR pressure was affecting the hub adjustment; this may in fact have been a severe effect, since I struggled to tighten the QR enough to definitely stop the wheel from pulling over when 'going for it'. I broke more than one rear skewer (through overtightening) before discovering that the serrations/profile on the RH locknut was important in preventing the wheel from pulling over; I found that if I used a RH locknut that cut into the dropout, and ensured that the wheel went back in the same place each time, this helped keep the wheel in place.

Knowing that the QR pressure affected bearing adjustment was one thing, actually setting it correctly to allow for this was quite another; it was very hit and miss at first.

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 13 Sep 2020, 7:53pm, edited 1 time in total.
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