Can I lace wheel rim ignoring the spoke hole offset?

[Des49]

Hi,
I have a Rigida Andra CSS rim to build into a wheel with a Rohloff hub. Currently the wheel is built with a Mavic X719 rim.

The Andra rim has the spoke holes offset the opposite way to the Mavic rim, i.e. with the valve hole opposite me the Mavic has the left spoke hole uppermost, the Andra downwards. Though the offset drilling on the Andra is so slight it is difficult to pick up.
(Not to be confused with the Andra offset tangental drilling to allow for the spoke angle into the large flanged Rohloff.)

I also need to follow the same spoking pattern on the hub as previously, otherwise this risks initiating cracking of the hub flange. Try as I can, I cannot seem to find a method to lace the new rim correctly while following the direction of the old spoke holes in the flanges.

Is this really important? The offset in the rim is very slight and I know it isn't right but I am tempted to ignore this and lace the new rim the same way as if the offset is the same direction as the Mavic. Will give a marginally better bracing angle! But really will allow me to follow the same spoke pattern in the hub where the spoke holes are distorted from the previous lacing direction.

I will use Sapim nipples, which pivot well on their more rounded heads compared to some other nipples.

If you think this is silly please let me know.
Thanks.

[Brucey]

one option is to lace the rim with the correct stagger, but with the valve hole in the 'wrong place' in the spoke pattern.

Another is to relace one hub flange, thus giving a good valve position.

A further option is to lace the rim 'wrongly' but to have 'tweaked' the rim first; either chasing the holes at a slight angle in a rim with no eyelets, or plastically deforming the eyelets in an eyeleted rim.

Since I usually build with spoke washers, and they usually cover the marks in the hub from a prior use (not to mention help with flange stresses) , I'd probably do the second of the options above, unless the hub was weird in some way. The first would, every time I went to pump the tyre, cause a little gnawing sensation in the pit of my stomach.

I've seen wheels laced with the wrong stagger and (unless steps are taken) the spokes do tend to break more often than normal, because the spokes are kinked where they go into the nipple.

FWIW I probably wouldn't build that rim onto that hub without improving the spoke line into the rim anyway.

cheers

[Des49]

Thanks for your advice Brucey.

Yes, option one would irritate me with the valve not between parallel spokes.

I know that the Rohloff flanges can suffer from cracks if not treated correctly, hence trying to ensure I do not change the spoke pattern. My hub has already got the flange support rings, it is an old hub and I thought these would be a good insurance.

I will test the lay of the spoke from the rim and may look at chasing the holes if necessary laterally. This non-eyeleted rim is already drilled to allow for the larger than normal angle of the spoke from rim to flange, though I have not had problems previously with normal rims even though you can see a bend in the spoke as it enters the nipple. I think the holes in the Andra rim are large enough to allow for some extra movement to the side, will check carefully and chase if needed. Should be able to do the rebuild tomorrow hopefully.

Thanks.

[PH]

I know that the Rohloff flanges can suffer from cracks if not treated correctly, hence trying to ensure I do not change the spoke pattern. My hub has already got the flange support rings, it is an old hub and I thought these would be a good insurance.

I'll leave rim advise to those more qualified to give it, but Rohloff flanges cracking is something I have experience of having cracked two. The 1st one hadn't been mistreated in any way, it was on it's third or fourth rim and all had been built in the same pattern by SJS, it was replaced within days by SJS FOC including the postage. The 2nd one had been laced in two different patterns and Rohloff were not prepared to provide a replacement FOC as they had the previous one, the cost would have been around £130 if SJS hadn't stepped in and sorted it out of goodwill. The new support rings will not lessen the chance of damage, that isn't the purpose, they'll hold a cracked flange together. That's useful if you have a ride/tour to complete, but I'm not sure how long you can use it like that.
I have no idea what the odds are or how much a contributory factor lacing is, the 1st went after five years and the 2nd six years after I'd changed the lacing (Which was due to a change in wheel size.) I also have another Rohloff that has swapped wheelsize 24" > 26" and back to 24", it was secondhand, though I know it's history and I've just accepted the risk.

[nigelnightmare]

Sounds like Rohloff need to sort out their flanges.
Not good publicity for a premium product commanding premium prices.
It's one of the main reasons I still use "cassette & derailleur" on my trike.

[adzthename]

I find if I build the wheel with the wrong 'stagger' it looses spoke tension very quickly. I then have to true and tension it all the time.
Do it once and do it properly!

[PH]

Sounds like Rohloff need to sort out their flanges.
Not good publicity for a premium product commanding premium prices.
It's one of the main reasons I still use "cassette & derailleur" on my trike.

It's something they're very aware of and the design has been modified over the years, they're still restricted by the type of manufacturing processes dictated by their volume of production. Other small quantity producers have the same issues, if you want to lessen the chances, you have to stick to one of the big manufacturers. Even so, my 15 year old Rohloff has required far less mechanical attention than any other bike, make your own choices but it makes no sense to base them on on element of the package.

[PH]

one option is to lace the rim with the correct stagger, but with the valve hole in the 'wrong place' in the spoke pattern.
cheers

Just out of interest - Would drilling another valve hole cause any problems?

[Brucey]

one option is to lace the rim with the correct stagger, but with the valve hole in the 'wrong place' in the spoke pattern.
cheers

Just out of interest - Would drilling another valve hole cause any problems?

not especially. The rim is a touch weakened where the hole is, but this only really matters if that part of the rim gets a whack from a pothole, or the tyre is inflated to some absurd pressure. I have seen a few rims where the well of the rim has cracked, and it will have cracked more easily where there are more holes in it, but this has usually happened in a prang of some kind.

cheers

[Des49]

I know that the Rohloff flanges can suffer from cracks if not treated correctly, hence trying to ensure I do not change the spoke pattern. My hub has already got the flange support rings, it is an old hub and I thought these would be a good insurance.

I'll leave rim advise to those more qualified to give it, but Rohloff flanges cracking is something I have experience of having cracked two. The 1st one hadn't been mistreated in any way, it was on it's third or fourth rim and all had been built in the same pattern by SJS, it was replaced within days by SJS FOC including the postage. The 2nd one had been laced in two different patterns and Rohloff were not prepared to provide a replacement FOC as they had the previous one, the cost would have been around £130 if SJS hadn't stepped in and sorted it out of goodwill. The new support rings will not lessen the chance of damage, that isn't the purpose, they'll hold a cracked flange together. That's useful if you have a ride/tour to complete, but I'm not sure how long you can use it like that.
I have no idea what the odds are or how much a contributory factor lacing is, the 1st went after five years and the 2nd six years after I'd changed the lacing (Which was due to a change in wheel size.) I also have another Rohloff that has swapped wheelsize 24" > 26" and back to 24", it was secondhand, though I know it's history and I've just accepted the risk.

Good info, thanks. That is why I was keen to keep to the precise previous lacing at the hub. Rohloff point this out in their literature, you have made it clear with practical experience.

My hub is old, secondhand too but not really used much when I got it, a 4 digit serial number, so I don't want to risk anything.

[Brucey]

re cracking in Rohloff flanges. There are various reasons for this, including

1) the hubshell is machined from bar stock (rather than being forged)
2) the material is not immune from the effects of corrosion
3) the spoke tensions are set too high
4) the hub has been relaced in a different pattern.
5) the hub has done a lot of miles

IMHO these factors are roughly in the order of importance, too. If you wanted the hubshell to crack, you would load it locally via a piece of stainless steel, and spray it with salty water. This is often more or less what happens to a Rohloff hub that sees a lot of use in the UK. Of course hubs that get relaced are more likely to break; the tension is often higher in a freshly built wheel and those hubshells are the ones that have also seen a lot of use and had to be rebuilt into a new rim, too.... [FWIW there are plenty of Rohloffs that have cracked despite being relaced in the same pattern...]

If you want a hub not to crack, it is best to treat the spoke holes with something that will inhibit corrosion. I use waxoyl.

FWIW if you change the rim size then it doesn't make any sense to keep the old lacing pattern; the spoke angles are changed enough that the loading into the flange will be worse than normal.

cheers

[Des49]

I find if I build the wheel with the wrong 'stagger' it looses spoke tension very quickly. I then have to true and tension it all the time.
Do it once and do it properly!

I had no choice basically. Had to adhere to the hub lacing so not to cause stress raisers in the flanges. The replacement rim is unfortunately a different hole offset, I again wanted the heavy Andra CSS rim with the tangental spoke drillings as I was tired of wearing out other options. As long as the nipple alignment is good and the spoke is not bent as it exits the nipple I think things should be good. But time and miles will tell!
I will be doing 2 long rides (approx 105 miles each way) with a good load in the next week, so will keep an eye on the spoke tension.

[adzthename]

I would personally bite the bullet and get a new mavic rim. Do it once do it right! It takes so long to build rebuild a wheel de-stress it etc I feel a new rim merits it but I'm intolerant and grouchy

[Des49]

I would personally bite the bullet and get a new mavic rim.

Well, that's where the problem lies. Mavic ain't what they used to be, X719 rims lasted 18 months at best. There are plenty of threads on this forum about rapid rim wear, plus my personnal experience. Since the days of the MA40 and Open 4CD rims I haven't found Mavic longetivity great.

The wheel is all built, perfect spoke lines from the nipples. I am happy to give it a go.

[Brucey]

so which method did you use?

cheers