Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

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tim-b
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by tim-b »

Hi
If the bolt is stainless steel that is, by the way, very bad for corrosion of the alloy, because chrome and aluminium are a long way apart in the electrochemical series

The electrochemical series is an indicator of risk and needs to be looked at in specific situations, which interests me on a practical level because the ratio of cathodic and anodic areas is another factor in area-related cell current. The small surface area ratio of the cathode to a large surface area of the anode, e.g. a stainless bolt in an aluminium alloy component, will minimise corrosion
Time spent wet is another factor and a stainless fastener in an aluminium alloy component is generally compatible with a bicycling environment; it's a combination used practically to hold aluminium bridge panels to roadways
In Army Missile Command Report RS-TR-67-11, active stainless steel 430 is next door but one to Al 5052 H16, nothing seems to be simple in material science, Brucey earns his crust :)
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CJ
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by CJ »

tim-b wrote:Hi
If the bolt is stainless steel that is, by the way, very bad for corrosion of the alloy, because chrome and aluminium are a long way apart in the electrochemical series

The electrochemical series is an indicator of risk and needs to be looked at in specific situations, which interests me on a practical level because the ratio of cathodic and anodic areas is another factor in area-related cell current. The small surface area ratio of the cathode to a large surface area of the anode, e.g. a stainless bolt in an aluminium alloy component, will minimise corrosion
Time spent wet is another factor and a stainless fastener in an aluminium alloy component is generally compatible with a bicycling environment; it's a combination used practically to hold aluminium bridge panels to roadways.

Totally agree with all that, but I think you're forgetting the detail of the original post. This involves a fastener that needs to be unfastened and refastened. Unlike those bridge bolts, which like the stainless screws holding my greenhouse together do NOT corrode the alloy structure at large, but merely acquire a bit of white stuff arorund their heads and threads that actually helps prevent them coming undone. That's fine for my greenhouse, that I have no desire to dismantle. The OP on the other hand, would very much like to adjust his wheelchair/cycle adapter!

But anyway, he doesn't have a stainless bolt like you suggested. What he has is a rusty plain steel bolt and that'll be fine so long as he greases it up with one of the specific corrosion-inhibiting compounds I mentioned. Even lithium grease would be okay if re-applied regularly, before it has a chance to dry out. Trouble is, people let sleeping dogs lie. So better use something one can safely fit and forget.

As an aside...

I'm glad you mentioned the anodic-cathodic area thing. My shittyest example of that in bicycle design is when SKS acquired ESGE's Chromoplastic mudguards. These originally had solid alloy rivets in stainless bridges. A poor combination because the rivets are small and the bridge plates quite big, but okay in practice because the rivets are big enough to just get a bit furry, and long and fat enough, being fattened even more by the simply-hit-it-on-the-end rivetting method, to still hang on in there. I still have a pair of these mudguards on one of my bikes at least 30 years old. Though to be honest I never rode that bike much in the winter.

But SKS had a differrent rivetting process. They used rivets with a hollow end that was spread out thinly around the hole by a pointed rivetting tool. Initially SKS used stainless rivets in Chromoplastics and this was fine, except that the alloy foil encapsulated within the clear plastic guard made contact with the stainless rivets and consequently corroded around them due to glavanic action, once exposed to wet and salty winter roads. This corosion was harmless, but unsightly. I still have a pair of these gaurds too, some 25 years old, on a bike I commuted daily on for most of those years.

But if things get unsightly without breaking: they hang around looking bad all the while, which is terrible for future sales. So SKS quickly changed the rivet material to alloy. This was also lighter and much cheaper, not only to buy but also in wear on the rivetting head. Marketing and accounts must've been ecstatic. And after all, hadn't ESGE used alloy rivets? But the hollow end of the SKS rivet provided a perfect salt-cellar, and the thinly spread alloy, in wet contact with a relatively large area of stainless steel, quite rapidly rotted. But not too rapidly. It took a couple of winters after the change before we started to notice the bridges falling off SKS mudguards. And cyclists' expectations of durability had by then shrunk dramatically - especially when it comes to things that are nowadays viewed as 'mere accessories'. And broken things disappear. So SKS pretty much got away with what I considered a quite apalling reduction in product quality.
Chris Juden
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Gattonero
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by Gattonero »

Hundreds of SKS mudguards go through my hands every year, many of them used on a daily basis and never cleaned. When a failure happens, is 99% a broken bridge due to the bike being bashed here & there so they get distorted and eventually crack. Never seen a rivet to fail due to corrosion, it would actually be a good thing as it would prevent damage to the bridge, and a rivet is dead-easy to replace (in a pinch, a suitable button-head bolt will do the job)
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CJ
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by CJ »

Gattonero wrote:Hundreds of SKS mudguards go through my hands every year... SNIP ...Never seen a rivet to fail due to corrosion...

I'm not making this up - check with those who have a bit more experience, such as thirdcrank and Brucey. And as my experience shows, mudguards don't have to be yet another disposable plastic item (competly unrecyclable due to the encapsulated metal foil). In this day and age we must re-learn the old lessons of how to make things last.
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Brucey
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by Brucey »

The aluminium rivets do indeed corrode when they see road salt; they have turned out to be a significant consumable item on the 'supercommuter' bike I put together. IIRC BITD 'Esge' mudguards originally had plated brackets and aluminium rivets; stainless brackets came later. Between the changes to the brackets and rivets you couldn't have a better corrosion experiment!

However in the middle of London there is appreciably less (vs outlying areas) use of road salt in most winters simply because it is that bit less likely for the roads to actually freeze; this means less corrosion too, all things being equal.

FWIW you can use waxoyl to help prevent corrosion but in places like mudguard brackets (high wash, lots of salt) it needs renewal on a very regular basis (every year or sooner).

cheers
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tim-b
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by tim-b »

Hi
What he has is a rusty plain steel bolt...

My suggestion was to change that for something that didn't need grease applying outside of the threaded area (to keep rust at bay and where the grease can transfer to clothing :evil: ) and was a bit nicer to look at. That didn't preclude the use of grease on the threaded area for ease of adjustment (although I didn't specify that)
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Gattonero
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by Gattonero »

CJ wrote:
Gattonero wrote:Hundreds of SKS mudguards go through my hands every year... SNIP ...Never seen a rivet to fail due to corrosion...

I'm not making this up - check with those who have a bit more experience, such as thirdcrank and Brucey. And as my experience shows, mudguards don't have to be yet another disposable plastic item (competly unrecyclable due to the encapsulated metal foil). In this day and age we must re-learn the old lessons of how to make things last.


Every year I fit (and refit the ones that were already there) no less than 150 sets of mudguards, I suppose that gives me "a bit of experience" ? ;-)

To be honest, I'm glad that some people thinks to dispose of a mudguard set just because cannot be bothered (or it's eyesore for them) two small bolts.
That's how I got one set for free :mrgreen:
IMG_20190528_060842_8.jpg


I think we must re-learn how to fix simple things before all.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...
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Gattonero
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by Gattonero »

Brucey wrote:The aluminium rivets do indeed corrode when they see road salt; they have turned out to be a significant consumable item on the 'supercommuter' bike I put together. IIRC BITD 'Esge' mudguards originally had plated brackets and aluminium rivets; stainless brackets came later. Between the changes to the brackets and rivets you couldn't have a better corrosion experiment!

However in the middle of London there is appreciably less (vs outlying areas) use of road salt in most winters simply because it is that bit less likely for the roads to actually freeze; this means less corrosion too, all things being equal.

FWIW you can use waxoyl to help prevent corrosion but in places like mudguard brackets (high wash, lots of salt) it needs renewal on a very regular basis (every year or sooner).

cheers


A big city like London has millions of cars going around, which means that lots of chemicals are left behind, and those make every sort of damage that is not to be underestimated.

Yet, just like said above, to fit new rivets every other year (or two stainless bolts, for good) is all but a massive task.
Considering the rest of the sundries, and the quality of the stays, SKS guards are still pretty good value for money and cost a fraction of "posh" mudguards that may actually last less.
To replace the rivets will cost no more than £2 for the bolts, I call it bargain bit I'm sure someone will think this is outrageous.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by [XAP]Bob »

To chime in a bit further...

The bolt is only needed to adjust for the depth of the wheelchair footplate (so less often than once in a blue moon).
With my footplate there is also a plastic shim which means that the bolt is entirely enclosed (though open to the elements at both ends).
There isn't an obvious stream of debris that is going to get in (it's not like the BB of a bike without a decent front flap) - but obviously rain etc will do so, and I'm sure road salt will manage to find a way (it always does).


If the bolt is stainless steel that is, by the way, very bad for corrosion of the alloy, because chrome and aluminium are a long way apart in the electrochemical series. A galvanised bolt would be better, because zinc and aluminium are pretty close. Aluminium on aluminium however is not so good either, because similar metals have a high coefficient of sliding friction, but appropriate lubrication can overcome that and I'd choose Alumslip.


Are you suggesting an aluminium bolt with alumslip?
Certainly an interesting option, the bolt doesn't take a significant amount of tension in service.
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Brucey
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by Brucey »

re corrosion conditions; they vary by area and usage. Where I am, it isn't unusual for a bike to see a single winter's ride (on roads that are just damp), be put into a shed for a week and then to come out with the chain seized solid.
Mudguard rivets fail often.


Re corrosion in a bolted joint in aluminium. Honesty I'd just use a stainless steel bolt with some kind of anti-seize, and aim to renew it every now and then. All this talk of alumaslip etc is over-egging the pudding. Anyway there is a major difference between different aluminium alloys; this is plenty enough to start galvanic corrosion if the conditions are that bad. If aluminium and stainless steel together were a major problem there wouldn't be a single bike out there that wasn't on the verge of collapse.

The galvanic series is only of much relevance if there is electrolyte present such that part of the joint can become the anode and other the cathode. Both aluminium and stainless steel have a native oxide film that needs to be breached before any corrosion will occur. It may be possible to include plastic washers in the assembly that will keep water out and the antiseize in. Also consider winding PTFE tape around the bolt; this insulates the joint, keeps water out too, and again helps to inhibit galvanic corrosion.

cheers
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Rusty bolts and aluminium fittings...

Post by [XAP]Bob »

PFTE tape is easily available, and has the attractive attribute of being long lasting - it has to be in its primary role as plumbers tape.

Given that the bolt won’t be repeatedly adjusted I think it’s probably a pretty good idea.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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