hoogerbooger wrote:my LBS uses PTFE tape on the thread instead of oiling and I think their reasoning was it both lubricates when building the wheel and helps prevent loosening up. ( I have no idea how it could do both ? but their wheels seemed to stay straight)
You can lubricate the nipples in a small tub, which greatly helps when tensioning the wheel as you'd have lubrication on the outside of the nipple too, if using a grade 223 threadlock will still cure even in presence of oil in the thread. I've used a few hundred times (no joke) the Bondlock or Draper branded ones, work well.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are...
Hi, So, you can say that unless you are building a wheel where you had to use thread lock on the NDS side previously, you won't know until after you've used?
Anybody here who builds wheels regularly would specify using plain gauge spokes in a wheel by choice. Also Is it really worth it mixing spoke Types on one wheel.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Gattonero wrote:That is very optimistic, in reality doesn't work that well and the threadlock will spill all around outside the nipple before going inside it....
I know it works very well because I have done it many times. The calculation merely helps to explain why.
As I said before there is plenty of room for a useful amount of threadlock between the spoke and the (tapered) opening in the nipple. If you put too much on the excess spills over, but that doesn't suddenly mean there is none where you need it....
In a similar vein if you have an old-ish wheel with partially corroded/seized nipples, applying oil in the same way (a week or so ahead of time) can make the difference between the nipples moving and not. The more you ride the wheel in the meantime, the better the oil penetrates.
cheers
I don't do it for a simple reason: you want the threadlock to set as quick as possible, ideally as soon as the wheel is finished. If you are to wait the wheel to be ridden that is not a good idea at all. Let alone the poor penetration of the compound, which can never match the complete wetting ot the thread beforehand, you still leave room for threadlock compound to spill on the rims and contaminate the brake pads, and especially the wheel is allowed to get a slightly change.
All in all, the only downside of wetting the threads is the speed of building. Otherwise, standard threadlock is cheaper, works more effectively, does not make a mess on the braking surface of the rim, and cures faster so the wheel stays almost exactly as when built.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are...
FWIW, I've successfully used many times the Loctite 572. This is a "pipe sealant" but does provide a decent retention on threads too, and is slow-cure so can help the ones that need more time in building a wheel.
It must be used by wetting the threads, because is highly viscous, and does not like oil. It has proven to be good against corrosion, and has got many other uses around the house too
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are...
Hi, Several types of thread lock Are self penetrating And resistant to oil. I am not sure that you need complete covering of threads, Just enough to prevent the nipple moving when unloaded.
Ideally a self lubricating medium strength corrosion proofing agent would be ideal. No need for Lubricant to assemble wheel. A rapid cure would not help here at all As said. For this to work you have to degrease First. But if this was to replace all other methods of lubrication et cetera, you can use this on every wheel Build, no more nasty surprises.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Since you're building the wheel you want to do things right, then you want maximum coverage of the threads with compound. Being a 56tpi (IIRC) thread there is very little room in between the threads, so capillary action will work only if the compound is very low viscosity, and only up to a point.
You do need to lubricate the nipples prior building the wheel, at least the Rh ones: this allows for less fatigue in the operator when cranking up the spoke tension, since the Rh side on a rear wheel is almost always done to no less than 90kgf. It will also prevent the threads from corrosion, depending on the quality of oil used. And avoids that squeaky noise of the nipple when turning onto the rim, especially non-eyeleted ones.
Having used the Draper/Bondlock/Unibond compounds (probably made in the same place and rebranded?) a few hundred times, on nipples that have been lubricated with Finish Line Wet (the green label one) you have about 10 minutes before it starts to set, and another 10 minutes before it gets really hard. This is more than enough for a decently skilled builder, and even for an occasional wheelbuilder, if used as said: leave the Lh spokes thread as exposed as possible, evenly pre-tension the Rh side and roughly adjust side error, apply the compound to the Lh spokes and quickly pre-tension them. From this moment, you have enough time to adjust the radial error, then adjust the side error.
The key is to pre-tension the spokes evenly, if an adjustable nipple-driver is not available, a good way to do is to pre-tension the spokes b y looking when their thread starts to disappear in the end (the hub side) of the nipple. A spoke length that is correct will only need 1-2 full turns of the nipples to get a good spoke tension for the Rh ones, the Lh spokes are pre-tensioned after this is done, and the wheel ought to look already round and straight (it will obviously be dished to the Rh side, which will be adjusted later on)
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are...
Roger Musson, in his book, recommends Loctite 222, applied after initial lacing of the wheel on exposed threads and give the wheel a spin to force it into the threads. It starts curing in 30 minutes so you should have enough time to finish the wheel within an hour after. Threads should not have lubricant on them (base of the nipples, yes). Loctite 222 is a mild threadlocker.
Loctite 222 will not penetrate enough on the 56(!) tpi thread of the spokes, will drip outside on the rim before that. Much better to dip the threads first, or to apply the threadlock on both sides: the exposed threads and inside the head of the nipple. With that grade of threadlock you don't have one hour to finish the wheel, but about 10-15 minutes only so it's best to do as I said: apply onto the Lh spokes and tension them only when the Rh spokes are already about 80% of their final tension and are so even that the wheel is already spinning "round" and with little L/R side error.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are...
that any surplus threadlock is soon shed when the wheel is spun doesn't mean there isn't enough where it matters.
Note also that if the nipple is locked to the rim, this also prevents the nipple from backing out, so if surplus threadlock ends up there, it may do some good too.
If you have a wheel where the nipples are starting to back out you have very little to lose by trying the "add threadlock + spin" approach; worst case is that there is too much lube on the nipples (or something) and the locking won't be adequate unless the nipples are unscrewed before it is applied. However if it does work then you have saved yourself a much longer job.
[edit; the other point worth mentioning is that it is often only one or two spokes (with unavoidably low tensions because of the rim shape/condition) where the nipples tend to back out. These spokes can be threadlocked as the need arises.]
cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 5 May 2019, 2:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Threadlocking Adhesive - low strength. Easy disassembly. Suitable for all metal threaded assemblies. LOCTITE® 222 is a low-strength threadlocker that allows the adjustment of screws including countersunk head screws and set screws. Good on low-strength metals which could fracture during disassembly, e.g. aluminium or brass. The product works on all metals, including passive substrates such as stainless steel, aluminium and plated surfaces. t is proven to be tolerant of minor contamination due to industrial oils, e.g. engine oils, corrosion prevention oils and cutting fluids. •Ideal for low-strength threadlocking of adjusting screws, countersunk head screws and set screws •Prevents loosening on vibrating assemblies, e.g. pumps, gear boxes or presses •Permits disassembly with hand tools •Especially suited to small thread sizes •P1 NSF Reg. No.: 123002"
Edited- I shouldn't of suggested 290 as its med / high strength
Last edited by NATURAL ANKLING on 6 May 2019, 1:01am, edited 1 time in total.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Yes, however you have to take into accounts the size and pitch of the thread. On a small thread like the 14-15g spokes, even the low-strength threadlock can have more than enough breaking torque to cause torsion of the spokes. The 243 type does allow to use lubricated nipples, because is oil-tolerant. Is not a bad idea to use nipples with an hexagonal head.
Alternatively, the self-locking nipples like DT Prolock work very well with minimal fuss. They're more expensive, but is a small price to pay for peace of mind in the very first place.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are...
That Fix spoke prep on the Wheel Fanaytic website looks pretty good. I think I'll buy some when I build my next wheel. I've got some old Wheelsmith Spoke Prep but it's pretty old and may hardened up by now.
I've never tried it but it sounds interesting for me too, especially as they claim will offer some form of lubrication of the threads. This is a very important thing, the spokes are stainless steel but the nipples are almost always nickel-plated brass and will suffer from friction
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are...
Hi, Up to now I've not actually used any thread lock on spokes. My problem was solved by using double butted spokes instead of plain in gauge. I have no idea what was used on my wheels originally, but this man was a bit of a P I T A. What number Loctite are you using Gattonero?
Further more I would've thought that any solution that's an agent you use other than threadlock Which sets permanently, but starts as a lubricant and then goes off, might well return to being a lubricant when it's warmed up slightly?
going back to my original spoke issue, where the spoke nipples were difficult to remove, it's noted that with all thread lock agent, there is a recommended thread size not to exceed. From experience even using a A medium strength thread lock on 12 mil bolts that have long thread engagement, They can prove tough to remove. On small threads this is also less of a problem.
I can see that before I ever use a thread lock on spokes I'm going to have to do some sort of experimentation to see how difficult they are to dismantle. Also appears that on material that is not steel The strength of the thread lock agent is vastly reduced.
mechanical thread locking fasteners always tend to suffer badly with continued use, So that performance will come into question if they are disturbed?
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
all proper threadlock agents have known lubrication characteristics; without this property it would be impossible to set fastener torque (and therefore tension) values. You need to check the data sheets that accompany each product.
Ditto the resulting strength of the locked joint with different metals present.
If you want to disassemble any threadlocked joint, you just need to heat it up. Most grades lose their integrity at about 150C; again you need to check the specs to be sure.
One trick that is widely used is to employ linseed oil on spoke threads; this lubricates during assembly but sets hard over time. I haven't used it much for wheelbuilding myself but I have disassembled wheels that have been built this way and the nipples unscrewed OK. You can tell the linseed oil was there because there is a brown crumbly substance present that retains its distinctive odour.
Again if the parts are assembled dry then the oil can be added afterwards, and (obviously) bonding the nipple to the rim also helps prevent the nipples from backing out.
