Views - this wheel trueing stand?

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NetworkMan
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby NetworkMan » 8 Sep 2019, 7:52pm

mercalia wrote:well I built the only pair of wheels I will ever build ( I hope) in situ using a spoke blutacked across the forks for roundness and the brakes for lateral adjustment. I used a cardboard "C" tool from Mussons book for dishing. But then I had a known good pair of Spa Wheels to have for comparison. I found having a Parks tension meter far more useful for knowing when to stop tightening and for consistancy purposes than a special truing stand. I am quite happy with the results, which have received a lot of battering ( given my weight ) over about 3500 miles so far mainly on rough tracks, without the need to tweak the spokes, bar I did adjust the dishing once.

If you dont have a tension meter how on earth do you know when to stop tightening? In my case the spokes I used were different to the ones on the SPA wheel so plucking the spokes and the note you get not a good quide?

Certainly comparing "my" wheels with the original 1-Down ones, the Dawes ones were rubbish, lacking in tension consistancy for one

Yes, getting the right tension is a concern to me too. I suppose if you are experienced, plucking might work but if you aren't, fat chance!

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Vantage
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Vantage » 8 Sep 2019, 11:28pm

Sweep wrote:
Seems strange that something should be made, especially by that company, that needs to be, er, adapted, to take a front wheel.

Can you post a pic of this offending item?


Here is the "OMG my wheel doesn't fit!" issue that Amazon reviewers described.

IMG_20190908_230810.jpg

And here is the no bodge to make it fit version.

IMG_20190908_231445.jpg

It can be a bit fiddly to bend the forks together while fitting the wheel between them but when tightened up its perfectly stable.
Bill


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Samuel D
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Samuel D » 9 Sep 2019, 7:31am

NetworkMan wrote:Wondering if I should give wheels a first try this winter.

Go for it! You won’t regret it.

I think a tensiometer may be the most important single tool to have after a spoke key. You can build perfect wheels without a truing stand but not without knowing tension. Plucking spokes is the best way to compare relative tension but doesn’t give you an absolute reference to build to. The more marginal your component selection is in terms of strength and durability – so light rims, few spokes, etc. – the more important it is to build to a high, accurate tension.

That said, I have heard there are some phone apps that give surprisingly good tension estimates from the tone of a plucked spoke and some manually entered parameters.

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Sweep
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Sweep » 9 Sep 2019, 7:34am

Vantage wrote:
Sweep wrote:
Seems strange that something should be made, especially by that company, that needs to be, er, adapted, to take a front wheel.

Can you post a pic of this offending item?


Here is the "OMG my wheel doesn't fit!" issue that Amazon reviewers described.

IMG_20190908_230810.jpg
And here is the no bodge to make it fit version.

IMG_20190908_231445.jpg
It can be a bit fiddly to bend the forks together while fitting the wheel between them but when tightened up its perfectly stable.

Thanks for the telly's view of the rig vantage.
Glad it all works - will doubtless be back for advice when I get round to wheel fettling.
Sweep

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Sweep
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Sweep » 9 Sep 2019, 7:40am

Samuel D wrote:
NetworkMan wrote:Wondering if I should give wheels a first try this winter.

Go for it! You won’t regret it.

I think a tensiometer may be the most important single tool to have after a spoke key. You can build perfect wheels without a truing stand but not without knowing tension. Plucking spokes is the best way to compare relative tension but doesn’t give you an absolute reference to build to. The more marginal your component selection is in terms of strength and durability – so light rims, few spokes, etc. – the more important it is to build to a high, accurate tension.
.

Interesting comments from you and mercalia on tensiometer. I had the idea in the past that in this place they were usually thought unecessary.
I suppose I was also put off by stuff to do with the apparent need to keep them calibrated, which seemed to introduce another variable over and above the several variables rooted in my general hamfistedness. Is this difficult? How much of an issue?
Is there one in particular you recommend and if so why?
Sweep

Samuel D
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Samuel D » 9 Sep 2019, 8:17am

I recommend the Wheel Fanatyk Jobst Brandt design tensiometer because it eliminates a couple of the main sources of error in these tools. Very expensive, though.

The Park Tool TM-1 is widely used by hobbyists and pro builders alike, so it must be worth considering. I think Spa Cycles use it.

I’d be tempted to find Norm Ogle’s ingenious Wheelsmith tensiometer on eBay, just because I like the elegant design. Wheel Fanatyk offers a calibration service for these, but shipping to America would make it pricey. But do you really need calibration, especially if you buy a new tool? I doubt it. Keep it clean, store it somewhere it won’t rust, and a hobbyist’s tensiometer is unlikely to go out of whack by enough to really matter.

Possibly these tools were conveniently considered unnecessary in the past because they were hard to obtain. But, too, conservative 36-spoke wheels hide a lot of sins. It’s when you try something more daring, as many people do now for their main wheels (as opposed to TT specials), that you need accurate knowledge of tension to achieve acceptable reliability.

For myself, I build fairly conservative wheels (though with light rims) and still like to know the tension. I do things as well as I can reasonably do them as a matter of principle if not need. However, I’ve also built light wheels for heavy men, and then I was glad of my fancy tensiometer.

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Sweep
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Sweep » 9 Sep 2019, 8:38am

Thanks for that thread sam - get well soon
Sweep

Mike Sales
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Mike Sales » 9 Sep 2019, 8:48am

I seem to remember that when I was a beginner in wheelbuilding, I read that a correctly tensioned spoke should sound a particular note when plucked. Middle C, I think. My wheel was gratifyingly close.
Has anyone else heard (!) this?
Of course various factors, not least drive and non-drive side, modify this.
Comparative tension can be assessed by plucking spokes too.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 9 Sep 2019, 9:03am, edited 1 time in total.

slowster
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby slowster » 9 Sep 2019, 8:56am

My wheel truing stand is like the Rose Bikes version, but was at that time being sold under the Minora brand. I bought it so long ago that it was sized to take 126mm rear and 100mm front hubs, and so I had to spring the legs apart to fit the 130mm hub which I was building. That in itself was trivial, but it had some minor consequences for checking wheel dish:

1. The fit was so tight that it was not convenient to check the dish by lifting the wheel out of the stand, turning it around 180 degrees and re-inserting it in the stand. Obviously it would be an even tighter squeeze for a 135mm hub.

2. I used a variation on the Roger Musson tool to check wheel dish, i.e. a piece of cardboard with a spoke. I suspect that type of design is more suitable when checking dish with the wheel in the stand, because the angled spoke (or the small pointed ruler on Musson's tool) can reach the face of the locknut, whereas the type of tool that uses a large threaded bolt might need the wheel to be removed from the stand (the bolt shaft is perpendicular to the rim and is so wide that the stand's forks may get in the way, depending upon their shape and size).

If I were buying a wheel truing stand now, I would want/prefer one that could take most or all of the various modern hub widths and axle types. I think thru-axles will become increasingly common on road and touring bikes, and similarly more MTBs will use the 148mm/110mm 'Boost' standard. Even if you have no intention of ever having a bike with such standards, I think it will be difficult to avoid them if they become mainstream on mass market bikes.

mercalia
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby mercalia » 9 Sep 2019, 10:17am

Samuel D wrote:I recommend the Wheel Fanatyk Jobst Brandt design tensiometer because it eliminates a couple of the main sources of error in these tools. Very expensive, though.

The Park Tool TM-1 is widely used by hobbyists and pro builders alike, so it must be worth considering. I think Spa Cycles use it.

I’d be tempted to find Norm Ogle’s ingenious Wheelsmith tensiometer on eBay, just because I like the elegant design. Wheel Fanatyk offers a calibration service for these, but shipping to America would make it pricey. But do you really need calibration, especially if you buy a new tool? I doubt it. Keep it clean, store it somewhere it won’t rust, and a hobbyist’s tensiometer is unlikely to go out of whack by enough to really matter.

Possibly these tools were conveniently considered unnecessary in the past because they were hard to obtain. But, too, conservative 36-spoke wheels hide a lot of sins. It’s when you try something more daring, as many people do now for their main wheels (as opposed to TT specials), that you need accurate knowledge of tension to achieve acceptable reliability.

For myself, I build fairly conservative wheels (though with light rims) and still like to know the tension. I do things as well as I can reasonably do them as a matter of principle if not need. However, I’ve also built light wheels for heavy men, and then I was glad of my fancy tensiometer.


I borrowed the Parks tool. I dont think it was accurate, needed calibrating/adjusting. But thats irrelevent if you have a pair of good wheels to compare the reading with? effectively non destructive calibration? I had some from SPA. That way worked for me any way ( it seems). Certainly they dont need to be accurate for the sake of testing spoke tension consistancy, which is very important? I would have thought if you get the dishing correct then the spoke tension in the rear will be in the correct ratio nds & ds? so you can a lot with a tension meter even with doubts over its accuracy I think? without having to rely on knowing your musical notes

Mike Sales
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Mike Sales » 9 Sep 2019, 10:38am

mercalia wrote:without having to rely on knowing your musical notes


My musical knowledge is very little above zero. Middle C is sometimes called keyhole C on the piano as it is C nearest to the keyhole!

MiddleC-Keyboard.png
MiddleC-Keyboard.png (1.65 KiB) Viewed 120 times


My musical aptitude is not great either, but I can tell if one note is the same as another. I am told not everyone can.
By plucking spokes I find it easy to compare their tension.

Edited to add: Of course the ultimate aim is not to have all the spokes exactly the same tension, or each singing the same tune, but to have a true wheel. Small irregularities in the components might possibly mean that tensions are not equal, whilst the wheel is true. Stress the wheel adequately to make sure it will remain true and retrue if needed.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 9 Sep 2019, 10:49am, edited 1 time in total.

Samuel D
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Samuel D » 9 Sep 2019, 10:45am

For me, the tensiometer is for absolute reference.

You may not possess a known good wheel; if you do it may have different components that change the ring of the plucked spoke; and anyway, good tension for one wheel is not good tension for all wheels. What do you do when you want 120 kg and your reference wheel is at 90 kg? You’re back to guesswork.

I’m not musical and Mike Sale’s middle C means nothing to me, but I can tell which of two plucked spokes rings higher with tremendous precision – better even than my Jobst Brandt tensiometer shows and far better than the Park Tool can reveal through the haze of friction. You can too, almost certainly. So for evenness of tension among spokes of one side of the wheel, nothing beats the ear.

And the left versus right tension is dictated by the dish, however you measure that.

So what you’re left with is a need to know absolute tension, but not with especially high accuracy unless you’re building marginal wheels or are irrationally fussy. So I’m sure any clean tensiometer, of any state of calibration, is better than nothing and perhaps as good as you need.

Samuel D
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Samuel D » 9 Sep 2019, 10:51am

slowster wrote:If I were buying a wheel truing stand now, I would want/prefer one that could take most or all of the various modern hub widths and axle types. I think thru-axles will become increasingly common on road and touring bikes, and similarly more MTBs will use the 148mm/110mm 'Boost' standard. Even if you have no intention of ever having a bike with such standards, I think it will be difficult to avoid them if they become mainstream on mass market bikes.

Good point. The Unior I mentioned needs more gizmos from Unior or Shimano to work with thru-axles. I had to buy those too, and they were absurdly expensive.

Buyers should be aware there are at least three common thru-axle diameter standards in addition to all the lengths: 12, 15, and 20 mm.

Mike Sales
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Mike Sales » 9 Sep 2019, 10:56am

Perhaps my view is a bit Luddite, but I taught myself to build without a tensiometer and went on to build perhaps several hundred wheels without one, and had no disasters. Even my first wheel stayed true, it just took a lot longer than later ones.
It is quite difficult to overtension, but use judgement and you will not go far wrong. Develop this quality.
I like to leave the job for a spell and then go back to it refreshed.

NetworkMan
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby NetworkMan » 9 Sep 2019, 11:07am

I think a key question is perhaps:-
If we take a particular spoke, say a Sapin Race spoke of a given length and build it into a variety of wheels at the same tension, will it ring at the same frequency in all the wheels? If a resonance in the rim is excited can energy be returned to the spoke and modify it's frequency. I think it probably can so the answer may be no.
Supplementary question:-
If the answer to the above is yes, then can the expected frequency be determined if the spoke length changes?