Views - this wheel trueing stand?

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tim-b
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby tim-b » 28 Apr 2019, 7:09am

Hi
For the X-Tools stand originally linked to; you can check roundness as you work with a strip of metal/plastic (a ruler?) clipped between the two adjustable "jaws" and touching the top edges of the rim walls. A couple of bulldog clips should do it :)
Regards
tim-b
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Brucey
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Brucey » 28 Apr 2019, 8:09am

tim-b wrote:Hi
For the X-Tools stand originally linked to; you can check roundness as you work with a strip of metal/plastic (a ruler?) clipped between the two adjustable "jaws" and touching the top edges of the rim walls. A couple of bulldog clips should do it :)
Regards
tim-b


there's no need for this; as per my reply above you just move the pointers down and in, so that they are positioned like this

Image

However as I noted above if the wheel is not fairly straight laterally, the rim won't pass between the pointers cleanly, so the radial truing can't be so easily attended to if the wheel isn't already fairly straight.

In fairness if a modern twinwall rim is noticeably out of true radially, either the wheel has been built very badly (perhaps using a hub which is not drilled concentrically) or the rim is badly made/damaged. Either way if a deep (~20mm or deeper) rim is badly egg-shaped with a short-pitch deformation there isn't that much you can do about it in a truing stand. By contrast a single walled rim (or a very shallow twinwalled rim) will move more easily with smaller tension adjustments. It seems to me that a good portion of cracked twinwall rims have cracks near the rim joint; it seems very likely to me that the wheelbuilder has sacrificed tension uniformity near the rim joint in an attempt to correct a hop or a dink in the rim joint, and this has ultimately caused the rim to fail because the rim's tension limit has been exceeded. A lot of wheelbuilders will only buy rims that normally come round (and straight) and they will spend very little time on radial truing; there is no need and there is not much point either.

BTW in case it isn't obvious (and although they are not quite my preferred arrangement), the pointers (in this jig and the park tool one) are designed the way they are in order that wheels can be checked for truth very quickly and easily during a routine bike service, i.e. the pointers reach around most tyres. With a twinwall rim, wheels can be tweaked with the tyre both fitted and inflated. In a few cases the wheel changes shape enough when the tyre is inflated that such truing is a very handy feature. You can check radial truth with the tyre mounted by posiitoning the pointers above the rim; this does risk rim marks with 'hard' pointers though.

cheers
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Sweep
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Sweep » 28 Apr 2019, 9:34am

Samuel D wrote:
vat1666firerates1 wrote:which wheel building jig would you recommend?

The Unior 1688. Simple, solid, folds down flat when not in use, does not require a bench or vice (I put it on the living room floor), spare parts available now and likely well into the future, and works well in practice. The plastic pointer can be arranged in a variety of angles and positions for radial and lateral truing. When truing the wheel laterally, I like to position the pointer at a 45-degree angle to the brake track so that I can rotate it in and out for small adjustments rather than sliding it horizontally (which stiction makes difficult for tiny adjustments). Replacement tips cost €1.90. David Rome reviewed it here.

Must admit I do rather like the look of that - looks solid and simple.
Do you have one?
If so, can I ask how much you paid?

edit - found this vid - I like the way the "indicating needle" can be locked after it is slid into position - I have the idea that some can't.

https://www.facebook.com/uniorbike/vide ... 112400413/

as a bonus, it appears to come with a stick-on facial hair kit.
Last edited by Sweep on 28 Apr 2019, 1:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sweep

David9694
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby David9694 » 28 Apr 2019, 12:08pm

I’ve got the Tacx one which is fine for moderate use (repairs, the occasional new build).

You get soft indicators for your side to side and a separate one for checking roundness.

It clamps to the side of a table or bench, but there is a specific thickness range this will work for.

You need a separate dishing tool.

Steve O'C
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Steve O'C » 28 Apr 2019, 12:42pm

I want one of these;

https://tinyurl.com/y4e5n7l7

No idea if it any good for building wheels but looks like a great bit of sculpture

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horizon
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby horizon » 28 Apr 2019, 2:43pm

Can anyone comment on the advantage if any of having twin calipers as opposed to only one?
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

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Sweep
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Sweep » 28 Apr 2019, 3:27pm

Brucey wrote:
vat1666firerates1 wrote: which wheel building jig would you recommend?


depends on the envisaged usage, budget, space available.

cheers

Now now brucey, don't be a tease.

For general use by the likes if us on here, doing a fair bit of wheel tinkering and maybe building 2 to 4 wheels a year in front of the telly, but not by any means building professionally.
Sweep

Samuel D
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Samuel D » 28 Apr 2019, 4:48pm

Sweep wrote:Must admit I do rather like the look of that - looks solid and simple.
Do you have one?
If so, can I ask how much you paid?

Yes, I bought mine for €87.99. That’s expensive for what it is, but there isn’t much competition if this is exactly what you want.

I don’t trust any of the calliper models I can afford to have adequate centring accuracy. Besides, I prefer a dishing tool for centring because that is inherently accurate and more precise, magnifying the error four-fold.

Steve O'C wrote:I want one of these;

https://tinyurl.com/y4e5n7l7

No idea if it any good for building wheels but looks like a great bit of sculpture

For sculpture, nothing beats the P&K Lie.

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interestedcp
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby interestedcp » 28 Apr 2019, 5:54pm

horizon wrote:Can anyone comment on the advantage if any of having twin calipers as opposed to only one?


I guess twin callipers are making it a bit faster to true a wheel since you can work on both sides without flipping the wheel over.

However, I personally prefer to use only one calliper/gauge, and only work on one side of the wheel at a time since it makes it easier to work systematically and therefore is less error prone (for me).
I also rely surprisingly much on the scraping sound to gauge the severity and the length of the rim-wobble I am trying to correct. Getting sound from both sides from a twin calliper stand simply irritates me.

In any case, for hobbyist DIY wheel building, I don't think a single calliper design should discourage anybody from buying a particular wheel truing stand.
--
Regards

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horizon
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby horizon » 28 Apr 2019, 6:13pm

interestedcp wrote:
In any case, for hobbyist DIY wheel building, I don't think a single calliper design should discourage anybody from buying a particular wheel truing stand.


(Thanks for the reply. I've taken up one part of it.)

I'm wondering whether hobbyist/DIY should exist as a category. I'm a complete amateur and prefer to do the maintenance at home. But my wheels still need to be true, just as my brakes need to work. I accept that there may be small differences in the final result (well, hopefully better than Halfords :shock:) but all these truing stands either do the job or they don't.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

Brucey
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Brucey » 28 Apr 2019, 6:53pm

the difference comes between workshop use and hobby use; the appropriate tools for each purpose are likely to cost different amounts, need different amounts of maintenance/setup, need different storage conditions/space, will/won't tolerate highly intermittent (vs daily) use, and ultimately work differently.

The wheel truing stand in the OP is clearly based on the PT design, but is a fraction of the cost. I haven't used one of those but I would be very surprised if it is the equal of the PT one in every respect; my guess would be that it is not as functional and/or not as durable in some respect(s), and you won't be able to buy spare parts if they wear or break.

The PT design takes up a lot of bench space and is something of a PITA to set up but once it is set up you can build wheels that are correctly dished to within ~0.5mm or so, and do it fairly quickly. It isn't that difficult to adapt the design to incorporate soft pointers if you prefer those.

cheers
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David9694
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby David9694 » 28 Apr 2019, 7:01pm

Tacx has gauges on both sides. Their use of plastic with just a bit of flex in it to mount these and the plastic the tips are made from are well thought out. You flip the feelers on and out and use one side at a time to get a sense of where the most variation is from the noise, and how many spokes worth of rim are affected.

I did buy a Park tension meter, but rapidly found I could do most that by feel.

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interestedcp
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby interestedcp » 28 Apr 2019, 7:14pm

horizon wrote:I'm wondering whether hobbyist/DIY should exist as a category. I'm a complete amateur and prefer to do the maintenance at home. But my wheels still need to be true, just as my brakes need to work. I accept that there may be small differences in the final result (well, hopefully better than Halfords :shock:) but all these truing stands either do the job or they don't.


Hobbyist/DIY isn't meant to be the slightest derogative. When it comes to wheel building, amateurs can produce wheels with a quality that is on par with professional wheel builders. It is simply a matter of dedication/research and time spend, since hobbyist can "afford" to spend much longer time on projects.
An expensive wheel truing stand doesn't make better wheels, it is just nicer and faster than using an upside-down bike with zip-ties as gauges. Speed is essential for the professional, but not really for the hobbyist.
So yes, one could build perfectly capable wheels with even the cheapest truing stand shown in this thread, but some are probably nicer to work with than others.
--
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Brucey
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Brucey » 29 Apr 2019, 12:02am

Sweep wrote:
Brucey wrote:
vat1666firerates1 wrote: which wheel building jig would you recommend?


depends on the envisaged usage, budget, space available.

cheers

Now now brucey, don't be a tease.

For general use by the likes if us on here, doing a fair bit of wheel tinkering and maybe building 2 to 4 wheels a year in front of the telly, but not by any means building professionally.


I'd recommend a folding wheel truing jig for that kind of use. The current tacx one looks OK to me (clamps to a table top) and so do several others.

If you have an old pair of forks and/or and old frame, you can avoid the expense of buying anything at all; you just need to arrange a pointer of some kind.

Image

Rumour has it that Marcel Duchamp was interrupted in the middle of building his own truing stand...

cheers
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Sweep
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Re: Views - this wheel trueing stand?

Postby Sweep » 29 Apr 2019, 6:41am

Thanks for the recommendation of the tacx one brucey but am afraid the table will get in the way of the telly.

So need a free standing one.

Nice pic and I do have a spare set of forks but don't trust my minimal woodworking and practical skills to complete the rest of the job.
Sweep