Help with Campag triple compatibility.

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ElaineB
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Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby ElaineB » 17 Jun 2019, 1:47pm

Hi All,
Can anyone help me with a Campag triple incompatibility problem please?
I have posted in the ‘wanted’ section on this site a request for a ‘Campag triple front mech’ to work with some Campag Veloce sti levers. The outer chainring is a 48T and the problem is the mech is having trouble shifting up to it consistently, it does sometimes but not always and I have been told it is me and the mech that are the problem!
I bought the bike second hand and the age of the fsa chainset is unknown, I put the 3 chainrings on...48/38/28. I bought the left sti lever on eBay and then I bought the front mech which is a triple Veloce, but the two together apparently are not compatible. I have been told by a bike mechanic that the sti lever is a 2001 and the front mech 2018. I have asked in the wanted section if anyone has a 2001 Campag triple front mech. The bike had on originally a Shimano Sora front mech with 53/39/30 chainrings which were far too big for ‘little old me’. I also changed the fsa mega bb for an Ultegra one which the 4 mechanics have all said is ok. I have put a photo on the wanted site as the gap between the small chainring and the outer bearings is much closer than my other triple bikes. All my Shimano bikes work like a dream but this Campag bike, well I won’t say what I think of it incase Campagnolo sue me!!!
Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

hamster
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby hamster » 17 Jun 2019, 1:55pm

This is nothing about the inherent quality of Campag stuff. Campag triples work very well and the levers with the micro-ratchet are very tolerant. I run a Campag triple with a Shimano XTR for a 48T chainring, although it's worked fine with a Campag triple front. My shifters are 1999 Chorus, which have the same micro-ratchet as the 2001 Veloce your other post mentions. If the shifter says QS then it HAS to be a Campag QS front mech.

Firstly check the bottom bracket length. The middle ring should be 45mm from the centreline of the bike. If its longer, the mech may not have the reach, and you would be best using a MTB front mech.
Secondly, ensure that the front derailleur stop is loosened far enough for the chain to engage.
Also, the mech cage needs to be lowered from the 53T setup until it's 2mm or so above the large chainring. A mech that's too high will always shift poorly.
Depending on your front mech, you may need two sweeps of the front lever to get it to go far enough. Ensure that the cable doesn't hang slack whne on the smallest chainring or you may run out of cable pull.

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Mick F
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Mick F » 17 Jun 2019, 2:03pm

I reckon it should work.
It's a matter of balancing the outer stop and the Ergo so the chain on the big ring when the cable is tight and when the Ergo is on its last click.
Also, the front mech should be adjusted so the REAR plate is parallel to the rings and clears the big ring by 1mm.
It all needs to be set up accurately, but once done, you won't need to touch it again.

The usual problem with these things, is that the chain drops off onto the bottom bracket off the inside of the inner ring.
Getting the chain onto the big ring is rarely an issue once set up.
Mick F. Cornwall

ElaineB
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Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby ElaineB » 17 Jun 2019, 4:32pm

Thank you for your posts. It was suggested on the ‘wanted’ section that I put these pics on which may help. The bike mechanics...2 from my LBS, 1 from a well known bike shop countrywide and another from another LBS are fed up with seeing me and the last one said ‘that’s the best it will work until you get the 2001 front mech’. I tried in our garage to get the chain onto the 48T but this is as far as it will go, without me physically moving the chain. I quite like the idea of trying a mountain bike front mech, but which one would be compatible? I can’t go back into the bike shops again, hence the reason I am asking here, every visit cost me a minimum of £50 and they say, ‘that’s as good as you’ll get it’. Really?
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Brucey
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Brucey » 17 Jun 2019, 4:43pm

random collection of stuff doesn't quite work perfectly? No big surprise is it?

If you FD looks like this
Image

then it needs about the same amount of cable pull as a shimano MTB mech, far more than a triple mech that matches your Ergo. I've not tried this combination so I don't know for sure but it wouldn't surprise me if the cable pull of the lever isn't enough for the FD. in any event it will be close, even if you set it as Mick suggests.

Re the chainset you need to have a good (road) chainline and yours may not; it may have a MTB chainline, which means that the FD either won't reach or will need a much longer cable pull to do so. Also note that inner chainrings meant for ST triples don't always play well with chainsets that use external BBs; with a road chainline the inner ring should overhang an EBB cup, and not all chainrings will do that.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ElaineB
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby ElaineB » 17 Jun 2019, 5:04pm

Thanks for that. I have spent a fortune on getting all 10 speed Campag Veloce parts because that was what I was told would work. I have a cyclist friend who I will get to read all your very helpful posts and he will hopefully help me sort it out. The Veloce FD does not appear to be the same one as I have on the bike, they are very difficult to get hold of and the people on eBay don’t always seem to know much about what they are selling, I did ask questions and all said, ‘yes it will work’ and they do work, but not together, yet.
Thank you for your suggestions, I really appreciate them and hopefully my competent friend will help me sort it out. I can do most things on a bike except the front gears but hopefully after this I may learn how to do those too!

hamster
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Joined: 2 Feb 2007, 12:42pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby hamster » 17 Jun 2019, 6:34pm

OK, one way you might get round this is to clamp the cable for the front mech on the WRONG side of the clamping bolt.
Do this when you have selected it onto the inner chainring, unclamp and give it a try. As it's an incompatible system at present you don't have much to lose.

Brucey
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Brucey » 17 Jun 2019, 7:08pm

I agree with the suggestion about try a different cable routing around the pinch bolt. However that FD looks like it is going to struggle to reach over the big ring regardless of the way everything is set. The chainline looks a bit wide to me (for a 'road triple') but its not clear that you can adjust it with the parts you have or not; even if you can adjust it, there's only a small clearance between the inner ring and the chainstay.

FWIW some options to explore include

a) that the FD sits on an adaptor; not all adaptors have the same lateral offset. By using a different adaptor the FD may reach out further.

b) The HTII BB you have looks like a 'road' one. IIRC a MTB HTII BB has narrower cups (by about 1.5mm) and thus allows the RH crank to be shuffled leftwards by a similar amount, improving the chainline. You will probably need to fit spacer(s) behind the LH cup; spacers are supplied with MTB HTII bottom brackets.

hth

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

slowster
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby slowster » 17 Jun 2019, 7:16pm

TL;DR

If the Sora mech previously fitted worked, just put that back on.

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I was the one who suggested the OP post on this board for advice (link). I made some comments, but didn't want to say any more until she had posted her query here, given that the likes of Brucey, MickF and others have more experience and knowledge of the delights of mixing and matching different Campag derailleurs and Ergolevers.

My twopennyworth is as follows:

- Circa 2000 era LH Ergolevers were compatible with both both double and triple Campag front mechs as I recall, and there were no separate triple LH Ergolevers. I gather from past posts by Brucey and others in various threads, that the build quality of the Ergolevers of that era was better than the latest versions, particularly in the lower tier groupsets like Veloce, such that many users of the latest Veloce levers do not expect or get anything like the lifespan of an older lever, and moreover the newer levers do not offer the same scope for rebuild/repair (although getting spare parts for a 2000 model lever is not guaranteed). As I see it, the reasons for using a 2001 Veloce Ergolever are either that you prefer that (2nd generation) Ergolever shape to the later shape of the Powershift versions of the Ergolever (and IMO the ergonomics of Campag levers are one of their strongpoints over Shimano), or because it's likely to last longer/be better value than a modern lever.

- I think that for some years now Campag has produced specific triple LH Ergolevers for use with its triple front mechs. However, I think many people have successfully used the standard double version of the lever with a triple (prompted I think by the lack of availability/discontinuing of a particular triple groupset). The Q&A on CRC's website for the current Veloce levers at one time contained conflicting answers (I think even from CRC staff) about whether they would work with a triple, whereas now they all say they will work. The downside of these levers is that they will not last as long as the older ones, but many people accept that at that price level because they prefer Campag and treat them as a consumable.

Given that various mechanics have tried and failed to get the set up to work properly, it seems to me that the OP's options are:

- Continue to hunt for an older generation Campag triple front mech, such as the Comp Triple or Racing Triple front mechs, or a triple front mech from one of the main groupsets (I know there was a Record and a Chorus triple then, but I think triples were not an option for all the less expensive groupsets). I think that it might take some time and luck to find one, and the OP will be competing on ebay against collectors and obsessives who will be seeking such components for their retro build projects, which can push the price up. This assumes that the problem is one of compatibility, and that the modern front mech which the OP has will never work with the older lever.

- If the problem is the chainline of the current chainset is too large, then replace it and its external bottom bracket with a traditional square taper chainset and bottom bracket. The option to choose different widths of square taper bottom brackets should enable the chainset to be brought further inboard (subject to the inner ring not coming into contact with the chainstay). The obvious candidates would be a Spa TD-2 triple or RD-2 triple crankset (see here) with a Shimano UN55 bottom bracket. The existing chainset's TA chainrings could be swapped over, so it should only be necessary to buy the cranks (£25), i.e. the TD-2 if the chainrings' Bolt Circle Diameter is 110mm, or the RD-2 if the BCD is 130mm. Spa advise a 113mm bottom bracket with those cranks, which would presumably give a 45mm chainline, so I would measure the chainline of the existing crankset to gauge whether to buy a narrower BB instead. Brucey has helpfully tabulated the different RH stickout measurements of the various sizes of UN55 BB here, so it is possible to calculate what the chainline will be with different sized UN55 BBs.

- If the Sora mech previously fitted worked, just put that back on. If it worked with a 53 tooth outer, I would expect it to work with a 48t. I could understand a desire to have all Campag on a period correct retro build, but the bike clearly is not that (as indicated by the external BB and non-Campag cranks).

ElaineB
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Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby ElaineB » 17 Jun 2019, 8:01pm

Thank you for those tips gentlemen. I will start with the cable rerouting and I also have another FD mount which may just give me extra travel. I really hope one or both together may be the simple answer. I bought the bike to use as a lightweight tourer and I really don’t care what components are on it as long as they work, getting all Veloce was advice I took from one of the mechanics. I did try the old Sora front mech which came on the bike but as I had changed the old damaged left Veloce lever it wouldn’t work with the new Veloce one. I also tried a Campag double FD which worked very well as a double but not the triple. I am sure one of your very helpful suggestions will work and I intend to persevere, it has cost me too much now not to. Kind regards, Elaine.

mattsccm
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby mattsccm » 17 Jun 2019, 8:15pm

Should you manage to find an older mech it will, in my experience work with almost any chainset. I used a Shimano MTB chainset for many years with my Old Campag set up. It didn't use all of the mech throw wither way. I currently am using an ancient Record road mech with a triple set up that it wasn't meant to work with but it's fine.
Simply put, older stuff and newer stuff doesn't always play nicely or if it does it's a bit of a fiddle. I suspect that you may be in the latter area.

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cycleruk
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby cycleruk » 17 Jun 2019, 8:33pm

A couple of simple things to check.

1st - Chain line- Measure from the centre line of the down-tube to the teeth of the middle chainring.
Should be near enough 45mm.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chainline.html

2nd- Make sure the "stops" of the FD don't restrict the movement.
(when I fit a new FD I undo the screws to make sure they don't effect the FD movement. Easy enough to set after.)
By hand, pull on the FD cable to see if you can make the change to the big ring.
This video may help:-
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-he ... adjustment
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It's either a headwind, or you're going well.

slowster
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby slowster » 17 Jun 2019, 9:34pm

Good luck.

In case it's of any use, I'll add the following comments:

- On one bike I have a Campag 10sp Comp Triple QS front mech with Centaur Ergolevers. The levers I think were 2012 (just the standard version - I don't think there was a triple version of that lever in that year) and the mech 2008. I think the mech supposedly should not work with the levers because it is a QS mech, but neverthless it does work (with a 46/36/26 chainset).

- Comparing the Campag 10sp Comp Triple QS front mech with a modern Shimano 105 triple front mech which I have (and which is probably very similar to your Sora mech), what stands out is that the distance from the pivot to clamp point is much shorter on the Shimano mech, such that a lot more cable needs to be pulled to move the Campag cage a given distance. Looking at your Veloce mech, it seems to have a similarly long arm (and you can compare it yourself with your Sora mech). I take it you have checked as I suggested on your other thread that you cannot pull the exposed cable to see if it will move the mech any further out (i.e. in case the lever cannot take up enough cable to move the mech through its full range).

- Another thing that stands out comparing the mechs is how much lower the inner plate of the Shimano cage is. This can sometimes be a problem when using smaller chainrings, because after the mech is lowered to be no more than a couple of mm above the large ring the cage may foul against the chainstay when the chain is on the smallest chainring. That said, 48t is not that small, so I would not have expected it to be a problem in your case.

If all else fails, it might be worth considering switching from a triple to a double. As much as I and others on this forum like triples, the ratios available with modern 10 speed cassettes and super compact doubles, like Spa's may give you the gear range you need. This website allows you to compare different gear ratios, triple vs doubles and different cassettes.

Ivor Tingting
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Ivor Tingting » 17 Jun 2019, 9:49pm

On one of my older bikes a Trek hybrid some yeas ago I fitted a Campag Ultratorque Record triple road chainset as it was new from a bike seller on Ebay selling old stock. It is very light. It was a bit of a puzzle to get it to work but I did it in the end. Everything else is a mixture of Shimano LX and XT. It works ok.

However what I don't like about Campag is their finish and durability are CRAP. I actually bought 2 of these Record triple chain sets. The first chain set the anodising peeled off the middle chain ring after about 2 months of winter use and the inner and outer big ring started to go the same way after a full season. The second chain set which is currently on the bike the anodising of the chain rings has faired a lot better although spots on the middle chain ring have started to bubble. This one I have not used in winter and secondly I seldom ride it now anyway having upgraded to a better bike set up with Rohloff. I have never experienced Shimano chain rings where the anodising has failed even riding through many harsh winters. But then again Italian cars are crap in winter. They literally dissolve before your eyes.

For me it would be Shimano every time. Campag are just too fragile and build quality is poor. In any case I've left derailleur transmissions behind. Don't miss any of this faffing around getting derailleurs front or rear to shift sweetly. Rohloff all the way for me now.

Hope you get your set up sorted.
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Mick F
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Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Mick F » 18 Jun 2019, 7:23am

It looks to me that the chainset is too far out.

Disconnect the cable and operate the front mech by hand. Can you open up the outer stop screw so the chain will go onto the outer ring?

If not, you either need a different BB or a different front mech. My vote is for the BB being too long.

CyclerUK and me are singing off the same hymn sheet. :D
Mick F. Cornwall