Help with Campag triple compatibility.

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Brucey
Posts: 35970
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Brucey » 22 Jun 2019, 11:05pm

I'm so glad the system is working now!

In general with a triple I find it is best to check the identity of the FD (assuming it comes from the era of indexed gears) carefully, and find out what crankset it is designed to go with. Assuming friction/microratchet control that pulls enough cable and being able to physically bolt the thing on, there are two main things to worry about

1) the intended chainline (you may run out of good travel in either direction if the chainline varies) and
2) the interval between middle and big ring


IME if (eg for touring) you reduce chainring size but preserve the middle to big ring interval and use chainrings with a similar collection of ramps and pins (cf the 'matched chainset') you ought to get a decent inner to middle shift. If you want to change that interval I would suggest -2T to +0T would be fairly safe. Reduce the interval any more than that and the FD will have to be so high that it risks overshifting off the big ring (FWIW I'd choose another FD but there are folk who happily use this setup) and a bigger interval risks that the inner to middle shift goes bad (and possibly the shift the other way too).

However

a) if the middle ring is still larger than the average of the other two, you may still get an acceptable inner to middle shift even with a crude (shallow) FD that isn't perfectly matched to the chainring sizes.
b) if the FD has a heavily shaped inner side plate, it may be somewhat less tolerant of interval differences.

If in doubt about the intended interval of a FD, measure the 'drop' of the inner side plate vs the outer, and allow about 2mm per tooth. Thus a 'drop' of 20mm suggests a middle to big interval of ~10T would be perfect.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ElaineB
Posts: 140
Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby ElaineB » 23 Jun 2019, 8:40am

Thanks Brucey for that very useful information not just for me but anyone else reading this section, I will certainly do more homework next time!
I think my brain was in Shimano mode, thinking Veloce triple 10 spd would work with the rest of a Veloce 10 spd triple, which generally works with Shimano. What I forgot were the chainrings and how important getting the right combination and size difference to work with said Campag Veloce 10 spd, I will certainly pay more attention in future because otherwise it can become a very expensive experience, like I found out!
I really appreciate your very kind and expert input here, every piece of information has been extremely useful and I have learnt a lot. It has been so interesting hearing what other people have done regarding gears themselves, it appears sometimes you just have to have a little faith but more importantly help from people in the know and not to be shy to ask for that help.
Thank you once again for passing on your extended knowledge on the subject.
Kind regards,
Elaine x

De Sisti
Posts: 746
Joined: 17 Jun 2007, 6:03pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby De Sisti » 23 Jun 2019, 9:07am

Nice one Elaine. Glad it worked out for you. The double shift of the lever to get the
chain to move from one chainring to another is something I do all the time (although
on my Chorus rigged bike it's so super-smooth, it feels like it's one swift movement)

and didn't think about mentioning it to you. Glad you haven't given up on the notion of
mixing Campag and Shimano.
Last edited by De Sisti on 23 Jun 2019, 3:27pm, edited 1 time in total.

ElaineB
Posts: 140
Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby ElaineB » 23 Jun 2019, 2:29pm

Yes thanks De Sisti it came as a eureka moment when it worked for me! Why on earth there are 6 clicks when only 2 are needed makes it all a tad confusing, but we know, don’t we!
Thanks for the offer of your Campag Champ FD which I didn’t need in the end, very kind of you.
I think I may go to Italy and do an Italian course on Campag, I could ride my bike and learn Italian at the same time, what’s not to like! X

Nigel
Posts: 150
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Nigel » 23 Jun 2019, 10:38pm

slowster wrote:That's good news. Mixing and matching different brands and components can sometimes be very frustrating, and occasionally some combinations never work, but often patience and perseverence will win through. I myself am shortly about to experiment with a Shimano 105 triple front mech and a square taper triple chainset to see what ring sizes I can get away with, starting with 48/38/26 and possibly trying to go as low as 44/34/24, and I expect that it will similarly not be entirely straightforward.



Should all be possible *if* the derailleur mechanism can cope with the rings. I run a 24/36/48 front chainset on my "old tourer". The front mech is Suntour X1 (circa 1989? when Suntour was good). The cranks Suntour 5-arm. Rings are TA. Shifter Campag Ergo triple from a 10 speed set, circa 2004. I have tried various newer front derailleur mechs, but its that old Suntour one which moves things the best over that set of rings.

The back end is 13-26 8 speed Shimano cassette, Shimano LX mech, controlled by a Campag 10 speed Ergo front shifter - standard "Shimergo".

Its a little heavier to shift than my 100% as Campag-intended bike (30-40-50 triple to 13-29 Campag rear, 10 speed Ergos from around 2005/6), but the old tourer all works correctly.



ElaineB wrote:Yes thanks De Sisti it came as a eureka moment when it worked for me! Why on earth there are 6 clicks when only 2 are needed makes it all a tad confusing, but we know, don’t we!
Thanks for the offer of your Campag Champ FD which I didn’t need in the end, very kind of you.
I think I may go to Italy and do an Italian course on Campag, I could ride my bike and learn Italian at the same time, what’s not to like! X


With some tweaking of the cable tension, I suspect a single sweep of three clicks could achieve reliable shifting, but I think at the moment don't break something which is now working.

The multiple clicks are a blessing on the old Campag front shifter - it allows fine-tuning of the derailleur mechanism so the chain doesn't rub in any position, copes with wear, etc..


Slightly cheaper than going to Italy: the book "Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance" might cover some aspects of these sorts of maintenance things at a level which is understandable - there is a preview of some of it on Amazon to try reading.


- Nigel

ElaineB
Posts: 140
Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby ElaineB » 25 Jun 2019, 6:31am

Yes as you said, I shall leave well alone at the moment but I may well try again sometime. I shall keep my eyes open when next at a cycle jumble, they may be my best chance at getting something compatible and usually the people selling the old parts seem to know what the item is capable of.
I do have the Zinn book, it is very useful but you can’t beat ‘hands on’ experience. If i know the parts will fit and are compatible then I do it myself but these Campag parts and chainrings wore me down! I guess that’s why they say ‘a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing’.
Sadly I don’t think Campagnolo have made things easy for the home bike mechanics, it appears, at some time, they put profit over all else and probably lost a lot of potential customers to Shimano and Sram. I guess somebody, somewhere, made a poor decision and it eventually trickles down to the people who are affected by it. Hey ho, I guess that’s what makes us human!

Nigel
Posts: 150
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Nigel » 25 Jun 2019, 2:02pm

ElaineB wrote:Yes as you said, I shall leave well alone at the moment but I may well try again sometime. I shall keep my eyes open when next at a cycle jumble, they may be my best chance at getting something compatible and usually the people selling the old parts seem to know what the item is capable of.
I do have the Zinn book, it is very useful but you can’t beat ‘hands on’ experience. If i know the parts will fit and are compatible then I do it myself but these Campag parts and chainrings wore me down! I guess that’s why they say ‘a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing’.
Sadly I don’t think Campagnolo have made things easy for the home bike mechanics, it appears, at some time, they put profit over all else and probably lost a lot of potential customers to Shimano and Sram. I guess somebody, somewhere, made a poor decision and it eventually trickles down to the people who are affected by it. Hey ho, I guess that’s what makes us human!


I agree that Campagnolo have changed over the years. A dozen or so years ago, there were spares available for a long time, and compatibility was pretty clear. There were upgrade paths, such as replace an internal part to change an Ergo shifter from 8 to 9 or 10 speed. Things were serviceable: I have an Ergo shifter to rebuild soon, the parts were about £15 (probably unobtainable now, I bought the spares a few years ago) and will take me around an hour.
I get the impression that today, Campagnolo have moved more towards Shimano's model - stuff is made for a while, spares a little while longer, then withdrawn. Once its gone that's tough if you need spares.

I'm not particularly wedded to Campagnolo stuff. The bikes in this house have a mixture of makers, the most recent purchase has a 2x11 Shimano setup.



- Nigel

Brucey
Posts: 35970
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby Brucey » 25 Jun 2019, 11:57pm

one of the fundamental problems with campag stuff is a very simple one; it ain't very clearly identified. Unless you really know your onions, there is always an element of doubt as to what exactly it is that you have in your hand. Even when you have identified the parts in question, its then something of a guessing game as to what other campag bits it might be compatible with. Probably this problem is worst in relation to FDs; in any one model year there are many more different versions than you might expect (often looking very similar) and campag have had several goes at fiddling around with the front shift protocol over the years which can affect compatibility too. Problems such as those encountered in this thread are not at all uncommon; when setting up campag triple chainsets (with campag shifters), it doesn't take much persuasion to cause me to use a shimano FD instead of a campag one, simply because I feel I have a better chance of choosing something that will be compatible.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ElaineB
Posts: 140
Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: Help with Campag triple compatibility.

Postby ElaineB » 26 Jun 2019, 6:10am

Well that’s nice to know Brucey. I nearly didn’t bother putting the old Shimano FD on after the 2018 new Shimano Sora model didn’t work but luckily I tried it and it worked a treat. I shall pay more attention in future at the cycle jumbles, usually FD are in abundance, I now know why!