Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

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toontra
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Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby toontra » 8 Jul 2019, 8:47pm

Just noticed a fractured rim on a front Open Pro rim that's just back from a 7-hour trip on an LNER train where it was hanging from a hook. The guard actually took it from me on the platform so I didn't see how he mounted it but I'm familiar with these guard vans and the hooking system they use (these are old 125 stock but a similar system is being used on the new Hitachi's).

Question is- is it safe to hang a bike by it's front wheel for a prolonged period on a train where there will be significant vibration?

NickJP
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby NickJP » 9 Jul 2019, 5:38am

I've hung my touring bike by its front wheel many times on trains in Europe without any problem. But I've always hung the bike up myself, and my front rim is a bit stouter than an Open Pro.

brynpoeth
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Jul 2019, 5:53am

Hanging up parking a cycle on land might be ok, but a train shakes quite quite a bit, easy to see how that could damage rims
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Brucey
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby Brucey » 9 Jul 2019, 10:12am

static, that would be fine. Although the vibration is something of an unknown quantity, I don't think you would easily get into a situation where the rim sees stresses that are likely to crack it.

Q. what form do the cracks take? What spokes/tension are used? Are the cracks bight and shiny within?


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Paulatic
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby Paulatic » 9 Jul 2019, 11:11am

Instructions in Scotland on class 156 train.
2A2282C2-4F79-49AA-A590-06043AED46A9.jpeg

I can’t see how it could crack a rim unless the rim already had a weakness.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 9 Jul 2019, 11:26am

Surprised at hanging spaces on a 125. They always have a guards van with "channels" in which the bike stands IME. Why are LNER doing it differently?

toontra
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby toontra » 9 Jul 2019, 11:32am

Spokes (Sapim CX Ray) re-tensioned by a good wheelmaker recently.

Image

toontra
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby toontra » 9 Jul 2019, 11:35am

Bmblbzzz wrote:Surprised at hanging spaces on a 125. They always have a guards van with "channels" in which the bike stands IME. Why are LNER doing it differently?


They've been that way on the east cost line for the last 20 years, and probably since the 125's started on that route. Takes up less space in the guard's van and only hooks for 5 bikes, so a lot of room for other stuff.

On the GWR route, the same guard's vans used to have racks for the front wheel (as you say), now replaced with the Hitachi's crappy hook closets.

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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby PH » 9 Jul 2019, 11:50am

Ouch, that's some damage, I've split a couple of rear rims but they've been a single split along the centre line, as have others I've seen.
My bikes have spent many hours hanging on trains by the front wheel, all sorts of rims including Open Pro and the only damage a bit of the finish scuffing. That doesn't rule anything out of course.

Brucey
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby Brucey » 9 Jul 2019, 12:04pm

toontra wrote:Spokes (Sapim CX Ray) re-tensioned by a good wheelmaker recently.

Image


Is the 'good wheelmaker' partially sighted by any chance? That rim has clearly been cracked for a long time; all the fracture faces are badly corroded.

I'd be pretty confident that the wheel needed a new rim long before you boarded the train.

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zenitb
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby zenitb » 9 Jul 2019, 12:45pm

One thing to watch out for is impact/twisting from other bikes. Here is my Cannondale en route to Plymouth in a new "Azuma" train..there is supposed to be space for another bike!! I was really relieved no one showed up with one though..it was hard enough wrestling my bike into place..there would surely be the potential of damage squeezing another bike in...

Its possible putting the second bike in "rear wheel up" might have been easier though ...
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toontra
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby toontra » 9 Jul 2019, 1:08pm

Brucey wrote:
toontra wrote:Spokes (Sapim CX Ray) re-tensioned by a good wheelmaker recently.

Image


Is the 'good wheelmaker' partially sighted by any chance? That rim has clearly been cracked for a long time; all the fracture faces are badly corroded.

I'd be pretty confident that the wheel needed a new rim long before you boarded the train.

cheers


Thanks for the diagnosis, Brucey. Just a coincidence then. That's actually a bit of a relief - I'd rather the failure was due to old age and not mishandling.

toontra
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby toontra » 9 Jul 2019, 1:17pm

zenitb wrote:One thing to watch out for is impact/twisting from other bikes. Here is my Cannondale en route to Plymouth in a new "Azuma" train..there is supposed to be space for another bike!! I was really relieved no one showed up with one though..it was hard enough wrestling my bike into place..there would surely be the potential of damage squeezing another bike in...


I'm forced to use these regularly on the GWR route. They're a PITA. I've regularly put mine on the inside hook only to find it blocked in by another hanging on the outer hook and even on occasion a third in between (right way up with the front wheel wedged in between the hanging bikes with the rear sticking out into the vestibule. Of course you have to move/unhook/manhandle these out of the way before you can get your bike out. Plenty of scope for all manner of damage there!

And then there was the time someone had hung their hefty bike on the outside hook with a kitchen stool strapped firmly to the pannier rack. It took me a good couple of minutes to try and remove it! Here is the "after" pic.

Image

Brucey
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby Brucey » 9 Jul 2019, 1:24pm

FWIW rim failures of that type are usually seen

- on driveside rear spokes (which see high tensions)
- in wheels that are regularly blathered in salty water
- in wheels which have been built with excessive spoke tension

Front wheels see less salty water and there is less reason to have high tension in them too; this means that failures of this kind in front wheels are pretty rare. [ IME Open pros usually wear out before they start to crack up; in fact I recently removed an unworn set of OPs from a disc brake wheelset where they had been built (with higher tension than I'd have used) and then used for at least 8 years on a utility bike in all weathers. These rims don't appear to be cracked, just a bit weathered. Provided they clean up OK I shall rebuild them into a rim brake wheelset.]

If corrosion is to blame then I'd suggest giving some thought to using a treatment inside the hollow part of the rim in future. I have used waxoyl inside the hollow section of rims that are to see winter use; if the rim is heated to about 60-70C then it will run freely and coat the rim inside; any excess can be allowed to run out. You can tell that the treatment has penetrated where it needs to because you can see the treatment 'bleed' around the eyelets.

However a word of caution; if there is excess wax-type treatment inside the rim and the rim gets hot (eg via sustained braking), it melts and can get at the inner tube/tyre (bad).

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mercalia
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby mercalia » 9 Jul 2019, 3:40pm

zenitb wrote:One thing to watch out for is impact/twisting from other bikes. Here is my Cannondale en route to Plymouth in a new "Azuma" train..there is supposed to be space for another bike!! I was really relieved no one showed up with one though..it was hard enough wrestling my bike into place..there would surely be the potential of damage squeezing another bike in...

Its possible putting the second bike in "rear wheel up" might have been easier though ...


does the other bike go by the side? if so what happens if you want to get out before the other one? That would anger the train guard as it would slow the departure?