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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 9 Jul 2019, 4:08pm
by Randy_Butternubs
mercalia wrote:
zenitb wrote:One thing to watch out for is impact/twisting from other bikes. Here is my Cannondale en route to Plymouth in a new "Azuma" train..there is supposed to be space for another bike!! I was really relieved no one showed up with one though..it was hard enough wrestling my bike into place..there would surely be the potential of damage squeezing another bike in...

Its possible putting the second bike in "rear wheel up" might have been easier though ...


does the other bike go by the side? if so what happens if you want to get out before the other one? That would anger the train guard as it would slow the departure?


I had the misfortune to use one of those a few days ago. Just finding a space for my booked bike was hard enough since there are no markings on the outside of the train. It took the guard several minutes to find a suitable place for me and she made it clear how much she hated the train design. Once on, we had to get people to remove a load of luggage out of the space and I had to try to wiggle my large bike in without scratching the one already there - not an easy task as the hooks are only about 20cm apart.

Getting the bike out on a moving train before I reached my station was not easy. There is not enough space in the corridor to maneuver a bike, let alone also redistribute people's luggage. The poor person with a bike on the inside got out without me realising and had had to move mine out, then theirs, then put mine back in.

The whole thing is a farce. The guard was encouraging me to send a written complaint to GWR as every time a cyclist comes along the train has to be delayed.

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 9 Jul 2019, 4:13pm
by pete75
Bmblbzzz wrote:Surprised at hanging spaces on a 125. They always have a guards van with "channels" in which the bike stands IME. Why are LNER doing it differently?


No that's the 225s. The oder 125s have the bicycle gallows. Nowt really wrong with them other than you're meant to take all your panniers off .

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 9 Jul 2019, 4:15pm
by pete75
Randy_Butternubs wrote:
Getting the bike out on a moving train before I reached my station was not easy.


Never tried. You might find it easier to get the bike out of a stationary train that's reached the station - just saying. :lol:

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 9 Jul 2019, 5:09pm
by Bmblbzzz
pete75 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Surprised at hanging spaces on a 125. They always have a guards van with "channels" in which the bike stands IME. Why are LNER doing it differently?


No that's the 225s. The oder 125s have the bicycle gallows. Nowt really wrong with them other than you're meant to take all your panniers off .

No, it's 125s I'm thinking of, but the difference has already been explained upthread. It's a franchise difference. GWR's 125s have the standy channel things in the guards van - 6 of them - LNER have danglers. GWR don't have many 125s left now, sadly. I don't think I've ever had the pleasure of a 225. My dangler experience is limited to XC Voyagers - not fun!

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 9 Jul 2019, 5:35pm
by pete75
Bmblbzzz wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Surprised at hanging spaces on a 125. They always have a guards van with "channels" in which the bike stands IME. Why are LNER doing it differently?


No that's the 225s. The oder 125s have the bicycle gallows. Nowt really wrong with them other than you're meant to take all your panniers off .

No, it's 125s I'm thinking of, but the difference has already been explained upthread. It's a franchise difference. GWR's 125s have the standy channel things in the guards van - 6 of them - LNER have danglers. GWR don't have many 125s left now, sadly. I don't think I've ever had the pleasure of a 225. My dangler experience is limited to XC Voyagers - not fun!

The 225 have a great big guards van type area and quite a few bike channels. They're a bit like the 125s but electric only.

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 9 Jul 2019, 6:18pm
by Ivor Tingting
I have used these hooks for hanging my bikes in the past. I am not a fan. I think hanging by the front wheel for a considerable time with vibrations from movement would possibly create undesirable stresses in the head tube and steerer from the weight of the bike itself. Not good. Hanging from the rear wheel would be better but still not ideal. I remember there being so little space afforded to adjacent bicycles, no allowance for the width of handlebars and a major risk of damage to your bike getting it scratched, gouged or frame dented. Old style dedicated mail carriages such that Virgin had on the ECML were good as they had 5 or 6 Oxford stands if I recall, but Virgin Trains on the East Coast are now long gone. More's the pity. The last time I travelled with my bike on a train was 2014 from Peterborough up to Fort William which was pretty hassle free. I did go down to London feb 2018 to go to Heathrow first on a WAGN train to KX, but these don't have those stupid hooks, then on the Heathrow Express from Paddington my bike was boxed and they have huge luggage racks so no problem. I try not to travel by train with a bike unless it is with my Brompton, but some times you have other plans!

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 10:43am
by DreadPirateRoberts
Ivor Tingting wrote:I have used these hooks for hanging my bikes in the past. I am not a fan. I think hanging by the front wheel for a considerable time with vibrations from movement would possibly create undesirable stresses in the head tube and steerer from the weight of the bike itself. Not good.

I've thought about that myself but have come to the conclusion that the stresses and vibrations due to hanging act in a very similar way to the stresses and vibrations due to riding if you account for the significantly greater weight of rider plus bike when riding vs weight of bike (and optional baggage) alone hanging.

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 11:45am
by Vorpal
toontra wrote:
Brucey wrote:
toontra wrote:Spokes (Sapim CX Ray) re-tensioned by a good wheelmaker recently.

Image


Is the 'good wheelmaker' partially sighted by any chance? That rim has clearly been cracked for a long time; all the fracture faces are badly corroded.

I'd be pretty confident that the wheel needed a new rim long before you boarded the train.

cheers


Thanks for the diagnosis, Brucey. Just a coincidence then. That's actually a bit of a relief - I'd rather the failure was due to old age and not mishandling.

I'm inclined to agree with Brucey. I definitely don't think that hanging it on a train could do that, even if you left your panniers on. It would take more than hanging & vibration, unless the wheel was already in need of replacement. Maybe the missing material was lost recently (though cracked for awhile before), and that made it more obvious to you?

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 1:16pm
by Tangled Metal
If you think trains are bad yet try them with recumbents. It even better try the replacement buses for trains on the closed line to Roscoff. They're built for uprights.

Scariest thing sat at the back of the bus as my recumbent dangled fixed at one wheel and tied at another without the fold out support bar that they couldn't get to fit onto my bike. The 'bent turned around these two fixing points freely and bounced so violently I didn't think it would survive the journey.

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 1:17pm
by rmurphy195
in the late 60' - 50 years ago - I travelled back from London in the guards van (my uncle was the guard) - this had a row of hooks to hang bikes from, it's simply that that's the way bikes have traveled on trains for - well, a long time. If you visit a heritage railway and peek inside the guards van, you'll see the hooks. And those old trains were far more rickety than modern smooth ones.

Maybe rims were more robust in those days! Or maybe there was a fault in the rim.

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 1:53pm
by toontra
What about carbon-rimmed wheels? I have some Dura Ace C50's with carbon fairings - wouldn't fancy hanging a bike on a metal hook by those!

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 6:53pm
by brynpoeth
When the train goes over bumps the narrow bar that the rim hangs from exerts sudden force on a small area, seems obvious that it could cause damage

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 6:58pm
by toontra
brynpoeth wrote:When the train goes over bumps the narrow bar that the rim hangs from exerts sudden force on a small area, seems obvious that it could cause damage


That's what I would have thought. It's the localisation of the force. Not really comparable to the forces when riding either as the wheel is greatly protected by the compression of the tube/tyre.

I've noticed significant wear to the paint and even small dents that have formed after long train journeys in the past. Not saying that was the cause of this failure but it can't be good for a relatively lightweight rim, surely?

Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 7:07pm
by pete75
brynpoeth wrote:When the train goes over bumps the narrow bar that the rim hangs from exerts sudden force on a small area, seems obvious that it could cause damage


1:27 onwards here suggest hanging by the wheel is the best way to carry a bike on a train.


Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Posted: 10 Jul 2019, 7:13pm
by Brucey
If your bike weighs ~10kg then it has to see an acceleration of ~10G for the load on the rim to exceed 100kg. 100kg is the approximate load in a single spoke, so the load on the rim in this case is not wildly dissimilar to that seen when a single spoke breaks. 10G is quite a lot; if sustained then most people black out, but it is not inconceivable that bumps in the line might generate loads of this kind despite the suspension in the carriage.

If you are really worried about this then it ought to be possible to secure a short length of padding ( pipe-lagging) to the rim, so that the hook bears against that rather than the rim directly. This will also help to prevent scuffs and scrawps. The wheel can be prevented from turning to 'the wrong place' using a toe strap through the spokes or something.

cheers