Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

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toontra
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby toontra » 10 Jul 2019, 7:15pm

pete75 wrote:1:27 onwards here suggest hanging by the wheel is the best way to carry a bike on a train.


No rubber coating on the hooks these days - bare metal. Standards seem to be lower now! And look at all the space for bikes compared to the bloomin' shower cubicles we're forced to use on the new rolling stock.

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RickH
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby RickH » 10 Jul 2019, 9:01pm

toontra wrote:
pete75 wrote:1:27 onwards here suggest hanging by the wheel is the best way to carry a bike on a train.


No rubber coating on the hooks these days - bare metal. Standards seem to be lower now! And look at all the space for bikes compared to the bloomin' shower cubicles we're forced to use on the new rolling stock.

By design the hooks have a plastic covering, at least on all the trains I've travelled on in recent years. However it often seems to get damaged in use leaving bare metal where the rim hangs from it.

If you are bothered about the finish of the rims it is best to carry something to go between the rim & the hook. If I remember I tend to use a cloth of some sort (usually a J Cloth type) on the grounds that it likely to come in useful for other purposes on the bike.

toontra
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby toontra » 10 Jul 2019, 9:05pm

RickH wrote:By design the hooks have a plastic covering, at least on all the trains I've travelled on in recent years. However it often seems to get damaged in use leaving bare metal where the rim hangs from it.


The new Hitachi "shower cubicle" hooks are brand new - and bare metal.

RickH wrote:If I remember I tend to use a cloth of some sort (usually a J Cloth type) on the grounds that it likely to come in useful for other purposes on the bike.


Therein lies the problem :wink:

pete75
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby pete75 » 10 Jul 2019, 9:30pm

toontra wrote:
pete75 wrote:1:27 onwards here suggest hanging by the wheel is the best way to carry a bike on a train.


No rubber coating on the hooks these days - bare metal. Standards seem to be lower now! And look at all the space for bikes compared to the bloomin' shower cubicles we're forced to use on the new rolling stock.


That was a carriage specially designed to carry bikes - usually used on boat trains the commentary said. By the looks of the markings I think they're borrowed from the SNCF.

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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby birkhead » 25 Dec 2019, 11:22pm

Little of this discussion seems to be a response to actual experience of Azuma. I am a 2x annual user of east coast, and I am dreading planning for next summer trip. East Coast luggage vans previously used 3x vertical hangers in the luggage van. But the story has it that the cycle parking toilets on the Azuma since Nov 2019, and indeed on the refurbed EastCoast trains being used on the Aberdeen Edinburgh route, are significantly worse. And case seen on www suggests ebikes are impossible, and half of our duet now uses an ebike to roll.
I thought it was the job of CyclingUK to negotiate the right solutions before the disaster hit the rails. Is it time for me to resign from CyclingUK in protest? What is actually happening given the protests in the media?

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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby drossall » 26 Dec 2019, 8:45am

DreadPirateRoberts wrote:I've thought about that myself but have come to the conclusion that the stresses and vibrations due to hanging act in a very similar way to the stresses and vibrations due to riding if you account for the significantly greater weight of rider plus bike when riding vs weight of bike (and optional baggage) alone hanging.

I'd agree with that. The stresses of normal riding must also be focused on that part of the wheel that is (momentarily) at the bottom, and I'm far heavier than my bike, so the loads are much greater - so the whole service life of a wheel is about sustaining transient loads. Even if you left panniers on when hanging a bike, they'd be on when riding as well, so the loads from rider plus panniers would still be far greater.

Brucey wrote:If your bike weighs ~10kg then it has to see an acceleration of ~10G for the load on the rim to exceed 100kg. 100kg is the approximate load in a single spoke, so the load on the rim in this case is not wildly dissimilar to that seen when a single spoke breaks. 10G is quite a lot; if sustained then most people black out, but it is not inconceivable that bumps in the line might generate loads of this kind despite the suspension in the carriage.

Really? Very small movements of course, but it's quite hard to see such forces being exerted and passengers not at least feeling ill.

I can see that these things are really awkward to use, but rims cracking from the hanging is not something I'd worry about.

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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 26 Dec 2019, 9:06am

If the rim is suspended from a hook it suffers forces for which it was not designed, the whole weight of the bike on a hook maybe made of 8mm diameter steel rod, practically the whole weight on a point on the rim, -1
Anyone measured the hooks? How thick are they?
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philsknees
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby philsknees » 26 Dec 2019, 10:46am

Having once experienced a well-meaning guard on Scotrail hanging my bike up for me while I juggled with front/rear panniers and bar bag, only to discover later that he'd tightly wedged the hook between the valve and adjacent spoke, I insist on hanging up my own bike and of late have carried a short webbing climbing sling to loop around the wheel rim to minimise possible damage rather than suspending it directly from the bare metal hook.

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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby axel_knutt » 26 Dec 2019, 3:01pm

drossall wrote:
Brucey wrote:If your bike weighs ~10kg then it has to see an acceleration of ~10G for the load on the rim to exceed 100kg. 100kg is the approximate load in a single spoke, so the load on the rim in this case is not wildly dissimilar to that seen when a single spoke breaks. 10G is quite a lot; if sustained then most people black out, but it is not inconceivable that bumps in the line might generate loads of this kind despite the suspension in the carriage.

Really? Very small movements of course, but it's quite hard to see such forces being exerted and passengers not at least feeling ill.


I used Def Stan 07-55 Pt2 for vibration testing, the severity specified for equipment used in wheeled vehicles was 1.5g, (10Hz - 150Hz). For equipment used in tanks (which are subject to enormous amounts of vibration caused by track patter) the severity was still only 4g. I saw a helicopter life raft being tested at 6g, and the din was deafening, it was loud even in the next lab with the door shut.
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby fullupandslowingdown » 26 Dec 2019, 3:41pm

great transport film, and not a tin hat in sight. Have we lost some of that quintessential English approach to enjoying a day out or is it just nostalgia pangs for steam and semaphores.

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horizon
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby horizon » 27 Dec 2019, 11:29pm

zenitb wrote:One thing to watch out for is impact/twisting from other bikes. Here is my Cannondale en route to Plymouth in a new "Azuma" train..


Just for clarity, it's an Intercity Express train or IET. Azuma is the branding adopted by LNER after Virgin lost the franchise in the north east. GWR use the IET branding.
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Brucey
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby Brucey » 28 Dec 2019, 12:09am

axel_knutt wrote:
drossall wrote:
Brucey wrote:If your bike weighs ~10kg then it has to see an acceleration of ~10G for the load on the rim to exceed 100kg. 100kg is the approximate load in a single spoke, so the load on the rim in this case is not wildly dissimilar to that seen when a single spoke breaks. 10G is quite a lot; if sustained then most people black out, but it is not inconceivable that bumps in the line might generate loads of this kind despite the suspension in the carriage.

Really? Very small movements of course, but it's quite hard to see such forces being exerted and passengers not at least feeling ill.


I used Def Stan 07-55 Pt2 for vibration testing, the severity specified for equipment used in wheeled vehicles was 1.5g, (10Hz - 150Hz). For equipment used in tanks (which are subject to enormous amounts of vibration caused by track patter) the severity was still only 4g. I saw a helicopter life raft being tested at 6g, and the din was deafening, it was loud even in the next lab with the door shut.


I was thinking of a single impact such as a bad rail joint or points, coinciding with a wallow such that the suspension in the carriage was already nearly bottomed out. The result could be the bogie slamming into the bottom of the sprung part of the carriage giving a single hard impact (think running through a pothole in the car). Passengers are sat on their own suspension (seat springs plus gluteus maximus) so would not feel the full benefit in the same way.

My point was that such impacts are not inconceivable but they are not exactly likely either. There certainly shouldn't be continuous vibration of that type. If such impacts did occur, a single overload event might be enough to do whatever is going to be done to the bike.

If you bike weighs 20kg and is hung up by the front wheel, a 10G event could exceed the normal design loads on the fork.

If the bike is hung up by someone clumsy and the mountings are rigid enough, there could be an impact that is harsher than you might expect; just dropping the bike one inch onto the hook might exceed 10G depending on how stiff the parts are that take the impact.

Note also that there might be lateral accelerations; these are usually small in railway wagons but occasionally the buffers see a bigger load than normal and this may jolt the bikes too.

When bikes are hung up side by side, there is always a chance that the pedals will clash and the load of both bikes may be seen mostly on one hook.

Most of these issues could be sidestepped simply by making the hooks slightly springy rather than rigid in tension. I don't know that any are likely to be like that though.

cheers
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Re: Hanging bike by front wheel on trains?

Postby mjr » 28 Dec 2019, 11:19am

horizon wrote:
zenitb wrote:One thing to watch out for is impact/twisting from other bikes. Here is my Cannondale en route to Plymouth in a new "Azuma" train..


Just for clarity, it's an Intercity Express train or IET. Azuma is the branding adopted by LNER after Virgin lost the franchise in the north east. GWR use the IET branding.

Isn't it really an A Train or AT300 (like Southeastern's Javelins) and IET is just GWR's branding trying to hijack the heritage of the HST?
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