Do many tourers and road bikes suffer toe/front wheel overlap?
I'm looking around for disc equipped drop bar fast/light duty/audax tourers (any recommendations would be appreciated, I've seen the Kona Sutra. I'm only browsing at the moment) and they seem to have minimal clearance for feet. I would need about 110mm clearance between the pedal spindle and the front wheel to have no overlap, would this badly restrict the choice?
I get spooked about the idea of my toe colliding with the wheel when I need to swerve sharply etc.
Toe / wheel overlap?
I know many cyclists who cite this as a serious complaint (CJ is often critical of bikes with this trait), but I cant see why. Some of the best handling bikes Ive had have this - on my current favourite (audax/winter) bike my toes foul the guards. Its never been the cause of a crash - indeed if I did touch while riding, then Id be on the point of jack-knife/crash anyhow or doing serious rough stuff, for which Id use an MTB.
To me, the top tube length and head angle are what they are and are made to fit the person and style of riding. the fork rake is made to provide the correct trail. Trying to force fit a toe/wheel clearance will result in some compromise on either fit or handling....
but, Im not an engineer or bike designer, just a user with years of experience.
To me, the top tube length and head angle are what they are and are made to fit the person and style of riding. the fork rake is made to provide the correct trail. Trying to force fit a toe/wheel clearance will result in some compromise on either fit or handling....
but, Im not an engineer or bike designer, just a user with years of experience.
It's a very common design fault, especially prevalent in American designs, where they take no account of mudguards even when the fork has provision to fit them. Some bikes even have toe overlap with a bare tyre!
If you want to avoid this fault - and you should - you will need to restrict your choice to British designs or go custom, strictly specifying the minimum front centres dimension. Amongst ready-made bikes of the sort you are after, Thorn Audax is one of the few that should give the necessary clearance.
Edit: In reply to pigman, toe overlap does occasionally cause riders to fall, never at high speed, but it is possible to fall into the path of a faster following vehicle whilst riding slowly. I've known (sometimes seen) riders fall due to this fault when starting off, zig-zagging up a steep hill, weaving through a traffic jam and negotiating cyclepath obstacles. Toe overlap with a front mudguard can be even more dangerous. It damages the mudguard and encourages the rider to adjust the guard very close to the tyre, so it becomes liable to jam if a stone is picked up. Riders have died or become paralysed as the result of a jammed mudguard.
I find no correlation between bikes that handle well and those with short front centres. In fact I prefer the front wheel a bit further ahead for another reason too: it allows harder braking without risk of pitchover, so I'm happy riding faster downhill on a bike with long front centres.
The only problem with longer front centres is the availability of shorter stems to go with the longer top tubes, and longer rake forks to go with the shallower head angles. If these components can be sourced the riding position and handling will be just as good, if they can't it will be compromised.
Unfortunately there's a hair shirt tendency amonst sporting cyclists that tends to construct a performance myth around any factor that makes their bike somehow more exclusive. Toe overlap does this perfectly: no trouble for an experienced racer at speed, but slow novices fall off. Very funny.
Anyhow: the norms of racing frame design have evolved with scant regard for toe clearance, with the result that we have standard designs of fork and a limited choice in stems that makes it a bit hard to design a good bike that has it. Hard but not impossible. Some manufacturers meet that challenge, most do not.
I see it as part of my job to stimulate a demand for bikes that not only perform but are also safe against easily forseeable dangers.
If you want to avoid this fault - and you should - you will need to restrict your choice to British designs or go custom, strictly specifying the minimum front centres dimension. Amongst ready-made bikes of the sort you are after, Thorn Audax is one of the few that should give the necessary clearance.
Edit: In reply to pigman, toe overlap does occasionally cause riders to fall, never at high speed, but it is possible to fall into the path of a faster following vehicle whilst riding slowly. I've known (sometimes seen) riders fall due to this fault when starting off, zig-zagging up a steep hill, weaving through a traffic jam and negotiating cyclepath obstacles. Toe overlap with a front mudguard can be even more dangerous. It damages the mudguard and encourages the rider to adjust the guard very close to the tyre, so it becomes liable to jam if a stone is picked up. Riders have died or become paralysed as the result of a jammed mudguard.
I find no correlation between bikes that handle well and those with short front centres. In fact I prefer the front wheel a bit further ahead for another reason too: it allows harder braking without risk of pitchover, so I'm happy riding faster downhill on a bike with long front centres.
The only problem with longer front centres is the availability of shorter stems to go with the longer top tubes, and longer rake forks to go with the shallower head angles. If these components can be sourced the riding position and handling will be just as good, if they can't it will be compromised.
Unfortunately there's a hair shirt tendency amonst sporting cyclists that tends to construct a performance myth around any factor that makes their bike somehow more exclusive. Toe overlap does this perfectly: no trouble for an experienced racer at speed, but slow novices fall off. Very funny.
Anyhow: the norms of racing frame design have evolved with scant regard for toe clearance, with the result that we have standard designs of fork and a limited choice in stems that makes it a bit hard to design a good bike that has it. Hard but not impossible. Some manufacturers meet that challenge, most do not.
I see it as part of my job to stimulate a demand for bikes that not only perform but are also safe against easily forseeable dangers.
Last edited by CJ on 14 May 2008, 4:31pm, edited 2 times in total.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36781
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
This is a bit of a weird subject. Logically, CJ is 100% correct - the last thing you want on a bike is something which might interfere with the steering, especially something as solid as your toe-clipped or cleated foot and especially something moving with such force as your foot on the pedalling downstroke.
Having said that, my experience aligns me with pigman. Most of my formative teenage cycling was done on a second hand Geoff Clarke, bought 1959ish. (It finally fell to bits beneath me in the mid 1980's - I've posted the pic of it broken before)
I used that frame for everything from camping in Scotland (with me carrying most of the stuff because my companion was recovering from surgery) to racing in France. It was only in middle age that I even noticed that there was substantial toe overlap.
I'd be interested to hear of any accidents caused by this problem. My own unscientific explanation is that when you are riding along, the front wheel hardly deviates from straight ahead by more than a few degrees because most steering is acomplished by leaning. If you are turning very slowly, you hardly pedal at all.
I would not promote toe-overlap but I am not convinced that it is dangerous as common sense suggests.
Having said that, my experience aligns me with pigman. Most of my formative teenage cycling was done on a second hand Geoff Clarke, bought 1959ish. (It finally fell to bits beneath me in the mid 1980's - I've posted the pic of it broken before)
I used that frame for everything from camping in Scotland (with me carrying most of the stuff because my companion was recovering from surgery) to racing in France. It was only in middle age that I even noticed that there was substantial toe overlap.
I'd be interested to hear of any accidents caused by this problem. My own unscientific explanation is that when you are riding along, the front wheel hardly deviates from straight ahead by more than a few degrees because most steering is acomplished by leaning. If you are turning very slowly, you hardly pedal at all.
I would not promote toe-overlap but I am not convinced that it is dangerous as common sense suggests.
I have a bike with toeclip overlap- a Claud Butler Brevet, which I am rather attached to. It has never been a problem, in the 24 years I have been riding it.
I do wonder if avoiding toeclip overlap has implications for overall frame design, esp if you are shorter than average in the body, when compared to your legs. I often have reach problems with frames, but not with this bike, which does also have a shorter top tube.
Any thoughts?
I do wonder if avoiding toeclip overlap has implications for overall frame design, esp if you are shorter than average in the body, when compared to your legs. I often have reach problems with frames, but not with this bike, which does also have a shorter top tube.
Any thoughts?
pigman wrote:I know many cyclists who cite this as a serious complaint (CJ is often critical of bikes with this trait), but I cant see why. Some of the best handling bikes Ive had have this - on my current favourite (audax/winter) bike my toes foul the guards. Its never been the cause of a crash - indeed if I did touch while riding, then Id be on the point of jack-knife/crash anyhow or doing serious rough stuff, for which Id use an MTB.
I'm with Pigman on this. My current bike has toe-clip overlap, but it doesn't stop me being able to turn as tightly as I can balance. In normal riding it has never been an issue and I've always assumed it was commonplace for fast(ish) bikes. Mine is a 23.5" Dawes frame, described as a "racer" and I think has 73/73 angles. I can't see how the overlap could be avoided without an abnormally long reach, or changing the steering geometry (or fitting smaller wheels)
Tony S
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36781
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Sheldon Brown he say:-
Toe Clip Overlap
On many bicycles, especially smaller sizes, it is possible for the front fender or tire to bump into the rider's toe or to the toe clip. Some people worry a lot about this, but it is rarely a significant problem in practice.
The only time it can happen is when the handlebars are turned quite far to the side, which only happens at very low speeds.
Many, many people ride bikes with fairly severe overlap with no practical problems, sometimes having to make a slight adjustment to their pedaling habits at very slow speeds.
On smaller size bikes with full size wheels, it is usually impossible to eliminate overlap without causing adverse fit/handling issues.
(Thank goodness for that
)
Toe Clip Overlap
On many bicycles, especially smaller sizes, it is possible for the front fender or tire to bump into the rider's toe or to the toe clip. Some people worry a lot about this, but it is rarely a significant problem in practice.
The only time it can happen is when the handlebars are turned quite far to the side, which only happens at very low speeds.
Many, many people ride bikes with fairly severe overlap with no practical problems, sometimes having to make a slight adjustment to their pedaling habits at very slow speeds.
On smaller size bikes with full size wheels, it is usually impossible to eliminate overlap without causing adverse fit/handling issues.
(Thank goodness for that
)-
mercurykev
- Posts: 260
- Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 7:05pm
- Location: Musselburgh
I've a Litespeed Catalyst (51cm) and it has overlap - and I only take size 7.5 shoes. It's a bit nasty when turning right onto a narrow road, especially when the visibility is restricted and you need to get a move on.
I'd agree it was a design fault. Probably the bike would be better with 650 wheels.
That said, I don't think it's ever caused me to crash, but the feeling of your toe rubbing on the tyre is not exactly reassuring.
I'd agree it was a design fault. Probably the bike would be better with 650 wheels.
That said, I don't think it's ever caused me to crash, but the feeling of your toe rubbing on the tyre is not exactly reassuring.
Wes, don't know if this bike suffers from toe-clip overlap but Trek do a model called the Portland.Drop bars,disc brakes (not sure on frame material) and very modern.Cycling Plus magazine have been using one for some time so it can't be that bad.Not a fan of disc brakes myself but the Portland does look like a top' bike.
My bike has serious overlap and I often touch the tyre as I am using the down tube levers. When you are used to it you know what to do but I think it is a risk on an unfamiliar bike.
The big problem is low speed handling, normally if you are trying to turn at low speed you keep your pedal on the outside of the turn in a position where you can push down on it in little jabs moving the pedal up and down over the same inch of travel repeatedly. This is imposible on my bike and you have to use the inside pedal which pushes you off balance.
No idea what you would do with a fixed wheel bike
The big problem is low speed handling, normally if you are trying to turn at low speed you keep your pedal on the outside of the turn in a position where you can push down on it in little jabs moving the pedal up and down over the same inch of travel repeatedly. This is imposible on my bike and you have to use the inside pedal which pushes you off balance.
No idea what you would do with a fixed wheel bike
Yma o Hyd