Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
David9694
Posts: 348
Joined: 10 Feb 2018, 8:42am

Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby David9694 » 26 Jul 2019, 9:05am

“Dear Shimano and SRAM cc Campagnolo

Please can you add to your range of road and MTB groupsets a high end (105 in Shimano terms) touring orientated groupset? there is lots to like in your existing road and MTB offerings, but tourers often have to mix and match, and not everyone has the time, ability or inclination to do this. A groupset results in components that really are happy bedfellows by design. What is elusive is a broad (low) spread of gear ratios, with triple and double options for drop handlebar bikes.

Brifters should have all cables routed via the handlebars, there should be an aero brakes lever/downtube shifter option. They need, if not already to be optimised for long drop calliper brakes. A disc option, already available for road set-ups, would be helpful.

Chainsets should be available in combinations like 48-36-28 or 48-32 and the front derailleur design tweaked to work efficiently with this, especially if indexed. The rear mech needs obviously to be able to handle up to 32t, down to 12t plus the front difference of up to say 22t. There is probably no need to go more than 10 speeds ( the traditional school kid selling point) at the rear - many touring riders would prefer less gears and so less dish on the rear wheel - without wanting to introduce yet another standard into the system.

In terms of bottom brackets, threaded continues to be the preference for most. It would be good to offer hubs in combinations like 32f/36r holes.”

hamster
Posts: 3175
Joined: 2 Feb 2007, 12:42pm

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby hamster » 26 Jul 2019, 10:48am

Microshift and SunRace are seemingly closer in offering what you want.

Shimano still pursue a strategy of trying to convince consumers that innovation in mechanical things evolves at the pace of the semiconductor industry. It doesn't. You cannot suddenly stuff 12 sprockets into the space of 8 without compromising things. As a result there are a lot of pointless pseudo-innovations and all at the expense of durability.

Happy still on 7 speed, bar end shifters and Magura HS77 hydros.

PH
Posts: 7503
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby PH » 26 Jul 2019, 11:03am

If you could get a few hundred touring cyclists to agree what a touring groupset should include, they'd probably make it. The Germans have pretty much defined what a Trekking bike is and there are groupsets that cater for it. Brifters and deep drop calipers? Not anywhere near my touring bikes, thank you!
Plus how boring would it be if we all had the same ideas about what a touring bike is? I've never had a problem getting exactly what I want, not off the shelf and all matched, but without having to go to any extremes, usually by having to go no further than this forum for the knowledge and SJS and Spa for the parts.

iandriver
Posts: 2155
Joined: 10 Jun 2009, 2:09pm
Location: Cambridge.

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby iandriver » 26 Jul 2019, 11:18am

Well, there is the new GRX groupset https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/product/ ... 00-10.html which I don't like the look of due to weird BCDs and crank arm angles, but hey, it meets your brief.

They do respond when there is a large global market. Sadly it's got to be really, really big, and touring isn't big enough.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

reohn2
Posts: 35950
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 26 Jul 2019, 11:28am

9 or 10sp rear with options of 13 or 14t to 32,34 and 36t,(I've never understood 11t top sprockets :? )
Triple chainset with 24/26/28-34/36/38-44/46/48t SquareTaper,ie;Stronglight Impact like.
Flatbar STI pods,drop bar STI's and bar end changer options all with the same cable pull.
V's and mechanical disc brake options
XT M756's both 6six bolt disc and none disc for hubs available in 32 and 36 hole options
A solid no nonsense run forever high end wide and narrower range option 12speed IGH
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

iandriver
Posts: 2155
Joined: 10 Jun 2009, 2:09pm
Location: Cambridge.

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby iandriver » 26 Jul 2019, 12:05pm

reohn2 wrote:drop bar STI's
V's and mechanical disc brake options


STIs compatible with V's please :-)
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

David9694
Posts: 348
Joined: 10 Feb 2018, 8:42am

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby David9694 » 26 Jul 2019, 12:39pm

Maybe we can get a settled view about equipment requirements, here on the CTC forum? I enjoy the boxing and coxing, although less so when it lets me down out on the road because I’m inept as a mechanic, or pushing my luck too much or what will work together in all conditions.

There is an issue about the size of the market But I wonder how much 12 speed stuff is sold to people who in reality in terms of their usage would be fine with 10 or less speeds.

I forgot to mention whether we’d like the hubs to be 130 or 135 mm. I was dismayed to find that my one 135 mm wheel doesn’t seem to cast the two sides of spokes any further apart than on 130, which I though was the point. The extra gap is filled by a longer axle. I raised it on here at the time and the response there was a difference - seemed a bit too technical for me.

I assume tourists aren’t interested in thru axles, or electronic shifting? in the absence of a support car, we just want it to work. The other thing the Germans in particular beat us on is on-board lighting.

David9694
Posts: 348
Joined: 10 Feb 2018, 8:42am

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby David9694 » 26 Jul 2019, 12:44pm

PH wrote:If you could get a few hundred touring cyclists to agree what a touring groupset should include, they'd probably make it. The Germans have pretty much defined what a Trekking bike is and there are groupsets that cater for it. Brifters and deep drop calipers? Not anywhere near my touring bikes, thank you!
Plus how boring would it be if we all had the same ideas about what a touring bike is? I've never had a problem getting exactly what I want, not off the shelf and all matched, but without having to go to any extremes, usually by having to go no further than this forum for the knowledge and SJS and Spa for the parts.


Agree about brifters - I run some, but won’t be buying any more. I’ve not grasped linear pull, etc at all - you pull, the brakes go on. Brifter brake levers are nice, but so are the Dia Compe non-aero. What’s the issue for you on brakes?

PH
Posts: 7503
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby PH » 26 Jul 2019, 12:55pm

David9694 wrote:What’s the issue for you on brakes?

I don't want my brakes dictating tyre size, there ares some longer reach calipers, but the reviews are mixed. Cantis, V's and disc brakes would be my choices.

peetee
Posts: 1370
Joined: 4 May 2010, 10:20pm

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby peetee » 26 Jul 2019, 3:36pm

I can't help but thing that Shimano dropping touring specific sets is a clear indication that they know that laden touring and cassette-laden heavily dished wheels does not work.
Current status report:
Latter side of fifty and feeling less than nifty.
Too many bikes on pegs and too few miles in the legs.

David9694
Posts: 348
Joined: 10 Feb 2018, 8:42am

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby David9694 » 27 Jul 2019, 9:31am

iandriver wrote:Well, there is the new GRX groupset https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/product/ ... 00-10.html which I don't like the look of due to weird BCDs and crank arm angles, but hey, it meets your brief.

They do respond when there is a large global market. Sadly it's got to be really, really big, and touring isn't big enough.


Thanks for this link - just been having a gander. Interestingly, there’s another thread on the go called ”where is all the gravel?”

User avatar
Tigerbiten
Posts: 1907
Joined: 29 Jun 2009, 6:49am

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby Tigerbiten » 27 Jul 2019, 10:29am

David9694 wrote:“Dear Shimano and SRAM cc Campagnolo

Please can you add to your range of road and MTB groupsets a high end (105 in Shimano terms) touring orientated groupset?

I've been thinking on this and can see the downside.
You would only get what big brother thought you needed, not what you actually want.

Luck .......... :D

iandriver
Posts: 2155
Joined: 10 Jun 2009, 2:09pm
Location: Cambridge.

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby iandriver » 27 Jul 2019, 11:27am

David9694 wrote:
iandriver wrote:Well, there is the new GRX groupset https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/product/ ... 00-10.html which I don't like the look of due to weird BCDs and crank arm angles, but hey, it meets your brief.

They do respond when there is a large global market. Sadly it's got to be really, really big, and touring isn't big enough.


Thanks for this link - just been having a gander. Interestingly, there’s another thread on the go called ”where is all the gravel?”


In the US and much of mainland Europe is the answer to the where is all the gravel in this context. I saw a lot of the new gravel bikes on the Italian Strada Bianchi this year. All the European tourers were on trekking bikes. I didn't see a single dropped bar tourer. Same in the Netherlands last week. I think that's the problem for these giant companies. If they can shift the in the hundreds of thousands and manufacturers don't want to put them on new bikes, they aren't going to touch it.

The upside is it's probably good for companies like Spa. Let them do the tinkering and just buy a sorted bike from them.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

pete75
Posts: 11733
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby pete75 » 27 Jul 2019, 11:36am

The easiest way to get the touring bike you want is buy the frame you like, buy the components you want on it and build it. That way you get exactly what you require. There's no earthly reason why, for example, all the drive train components should be from the same manufacturer.

iandriver
Posts: 2155
Joined: 10 Jun 2009, 2:09pm
Location: Cambridge.

Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby iandriver » 27 Jul 2019, 11:59am

pete75 wrote:The easiest way to get the touring bike you want is buy the frame you like, buy the components you want on it and build it. That way you get exactly what you require. There's no earthly reason why, for example, all the drive train components should be from the same manufacturer.

By the time you factor in not being able to buy direct series replacement parts as time passed, I think this approach really makes sense if you plan to hang onto it for a good while, which many of us do. Ultimately, my bikes have all become a mix and match of various parts. Shimano spider and after market rings etc.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....