Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

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reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 27 Jul 2019, 12:09pm

pete75 wrote:The easiest way to get the touring bike you want is buy the frame you like, buy the components you want on it and build it. That way you get exactly what you require. There's no earthly reason why, for example, all the drive train components should be from the same manufacturer.

Agreed,but I don't think for a moment Mr Shimano will pay any heed to the pleas of a niche market sector.And though I'm a fettler I weigh up what works best for me and set about finding a solution from the many and varied parts available to me on the market past and present,to achieve that end.However not everyone is a fettler like myself and want something off the shelf that meets a specific need,it's only available in today's systems market within certain,what seems to be ever narrower parameters.
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David9694
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby David9694 » 27 Jul 2019, 3:15pm

pete75 wrote:The easiest way to get the touring bike you want is buy the frame you like, buy the components you want on it and build it. That way you get exactly what you require. There's no earthly reason why, for example, all the drive train components should be from the same manufacturer.


How far do you think you can go with mixing? Non-index brings a lot of freedom, but I think we normally divide into “I’m a Shimano man” (that’s me, but with some Strong Light, Dia Compe and Tektro mixed in) or “I’m a Campag man.” Because they don’t mix, particularly with rear gears.

You’re the same as me, I think, you’re prepared to take on the fiddling to get the set-up you want - but it might help if there was the option to have had someone have thought about it for you?

pete75
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby pete75 » 27 Jul 2019, 5:00pm

David9694 wrote:
pete75 wrote:The easiest way to get the touring bike you want is buy the frame you like, buy the components you want on it and build it. That way you get exactly what you require. There's no earthly reason why, for example, all the drive train components should be from the same manufacturer.


How far do you think you can go with mixing? Non-index brings a lot of freedom, but I think we normally divide into “I’m a Shimano man” (that’s me, but with some Strong Light, Dia Compe and Tektro mixed in) or “I’m a Campag man.” Because they don’t mix, particularly with rear gears.

You’re the same as me, I think, you’re prepared to take on the fiddling to get the set-up you want - but it might help if there was the option to have had someone have thought about it for you?


I think there is that option - Spa touring bikes seem to have a well thought out set up and I believe they will alter the build if the customer requires as well as advising on the feasibility of any individual requirements.

reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 27 Jul 2019, 6:19pm

pete75 wrote:
David9694 wrote:
pete75 wrote:The easiest way to get the touring bike you want is buy the frame you like, buy the components you want on it and build it. That way you get exactly what you require. There's no earthly reason why, for example, all the drive train components should be from the same manufacturer.


How far do you think you can go with mixing? Non-index brings a lot of freedom, but I think we normally divide into “I’m a Shimano man” (that’s me, but with some Strong Light, Dia Compe and Tektro mixed in) or “I’m a Campag man.” Because they don’t mix, particularly with rear gears.

You’re the same as me, I think, you’re prepared to take on the fiddling to get the set-up you want - but it might help if there was the option to have had someone have thought about it for you?


I think there is that option - Spa touring bikes seem to have a well thought out set up and I believe they will alter the build if the customer requires as well as advising on the feasibility of any individual requirements.

And Spa are now stocking some Surly and Genesis framesets to choose from to do specialist builds for the customer.
Last edited by reohn2 on 28 Jul 2019, 9:09am, edited 1 time in total.
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scottg
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby scottg » 28 Jul 2019, 1:34am

If you get a panel of 10 touring riders together, to advise Shimano,
the result will be 11 touring configurations.

The ancient days when shimano sti 9&10s brifters worked with mtb parts was fine.

If Shimano could build some 12 & 11 d/t shifters I'd be happy.
The GRX bits are nice, low gears that work with existing 11s & 10s road shifters.

Now a 5 or 7 speed disc cassette hub would be a wonderful thing. :D
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reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jul 2019, 9:19am

scottg wrote:If you get a panel of 10 touring riders together, to advise Shimano,
the result will be 11 touring configurations.

I think my first posts content would cover all eventualities for the tourist,a wide gear range for a number of handlebar preferences with a little elasticity in compatability of parts.

The ancient days when shimano sti 9&10s brifters worked with mtb parts was fine.

If Shimano could build some 12 & 11 d/t shifters I'd be happy.
The GRX bits are nice, low gears that work with existing 11s & 10s road shifters.

I've never needed anymore than 9sp at the back but find the current vogue for one or two at most chainrings puzzling with an ever growing number of rear sprockets,when the triple allows for closer ratios with a very wide range with a triple.

Now a 5 or 7 speed disc cassette hub would be a wonderful thing. :D

For those who's needs are less yes but I feel 8 or 9sp to be the sweet spot.
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HobbesOnTour
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby HobbesOnTour » 28 Jul 2019, 9:57am

scottg wrote:
Now a 5 or 7 speed disc cassette hub would be a wonderful thing. :D

I've run a 7 speed cassette on an 8 speed hub with a spacer (non disk), and now, due to circumstances, run the same cassette on a disk hub.

Jdsk
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby Jdsk » 28 Jul 2019, 10:43am

pete75 wrote:The easiest way to get the touring bike you want is buy the frame you like, buy the components you want on it and build it. That way you get exactly what you require. There's no earthly reason why, for example, all the drive train components should be from the same manufacturer.

If you're not an expert and don't have access to expert advice then buying a set that's known to work together is a sensible way of reducing the risk of incompatibility.

Jonathan

PH
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby PH » 28 Jul 2019, 11:20am

David9694 wrote:
pete75 wrote:The easiest way to get the touring bike you want is buy the frame you like, buy the components you want on it and build it. That way you get exactly what you require. There's no earthly reason why, for example, all the drive train components should be from the same manufacturer.


How far do you think you can go with mixing?

How far do you want to go? There's probably a Shiftmate for that :wink:
My only derailleur bike* is a bit mixed - 3 X 9, Campag Ergos, Shimano F Mech, Stronglight BB and chainset, Microshift R mech, Miche cassette, Shimano hub and a Shiftmate. Not only did I want a certain gear range that worked well together using some of my existing components, I also wanted a certain look. Even if those specifics were met by an off the shelf groupset, the chances of it appealing to many others is unlikely.

*My other bikes are hub geared, I don't think there's a hub designed specifically for touring either, though by happy coincidence there's some work very well for it.

PH
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby PH » 28 Jul 2019, 11:24am

peetee wrote:I can't help but thing that Shimano dropping touring specific sets is a clear indication that they know that laden touring and cassette-laden heavily dished wheels does not work.

Dropping them? Where? When?
They offer some trekking branded groups, so the only indication is that they don't consider the drop bar touring market worth catering specifically for. Have they ever?

reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jul 2019, 11:57am

PH wrote:
They offer some trekking branded groups, so the only indication is that they don't consider the drop bar touring market worth catering specifically for. Have they ever?

I don't think they do or ever have,but conicidentaly Shimano 3x9sp worked very well for dropped bar touring enthusiasts,but went out the window with the advent of 10sp along with the dropping of triples in the higher end groupsets,though Stonglight Impact and Spa Cycles filled the gap,along with lower end Claris and Sora triple STI's or bar end or DT levers.
Last edited by reohn2 on 28 Jul 2019, 12:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cugel
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby Cugel » 28 Jul 2019, 12:40pm

Not just tourists but the vast majority of everyday cyclists need gear ranges other than the dominant market offerings, which mostly seem oriented at professional racers. There is no utility in 53X11 for everyday cyclists on 700C wheels, despite what the downhill pedalers believe. Those lads are just failing to understand the energy-saving of applying gravity with an aerodynamic crouch for a few minutes.

Even racing lads (and lasses) of olden days had 52X13 as their top gear. Many tourists had 48X14 or 15. As to the low gears, the foolish arrangement of yesteryear was a bottom of 42X21. Even them supermen of Le Tour and similar now have a 39X28 or even 30.

My own conclusion from these historical facts (and experience of them in my own cycling of past and present) is that even fit lads doing Audax, never mind tourists, need a top gear of no more than 52X13; and 50X14 will serve a goodly portion of them. On the other hand, a 34X34 seems like a good idea for even a club rider, crawling home after 80 or 90 hard miles with the bonk impending. Or going up a series of the more viscous climbs to found in The Lakes, The Pennines, The West Welsh valleys and The Highlands.

So, without inventing yet another special Touring Groupset with standards and parameters unique rather than the same as other groupset stuff, how about:

A return to already designed and proven successful items;
A retention of existing standards of fit and interoperability;
The provision of gear bits that provide useful rather than fashionable gear ranges.

If I can disembowel two cassettes to make a "proper" one for my purposes, so can Mr Shimano or Mr SRAM or any other provider of bicycle gearing. I've done the two-to-make-one thing to get: 13-30; 14-32; 14-36; 15-27. These go with either a "standard" triple Shimano-style 52-39-30 or a Spa such as 46-36-26. They have a high enough top gear, a low enough crawler and small jumps between the sprocket ratios, with none wasted.

The triple chainset is not so much a provider of teeny ratio jumps (a 9 or 10-speed cassette can easily provide those) as a device to set the rear ratios for the type of terrain:

Big ring for fast, flat, slightly undulating, wind-behind and other rapid-progress roads.
Middle ring for most riding that goes between about 10-20mph.
Little ring for roads generally going up, inclusive of very-up.

I have a NOS Dura Ace 10 speed triple as well as a similar Ultegra. They're high quality and function very well. When they wear out I'd have to buy a Tiagra or Sora - functionally fine but a missed opportunity for profit from those such as myself too easily seduced by a shiny man-jewel. :-)

Also, I resent the need to built the cassette I want from two others, rather than it being available off the shelf and at half the spend. Every bluddy cassette these days seems to start at 11. Nae use!

Cugel

mattsccm
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby mattsccm » 28 Jul 2019, 12:47pm

Ah but who wants to save energy? :D I go out to get knackered.
Just to point out what we all know . None of us want the same thing.

reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jul 2019, 1:13pm

mattsccm wrote:Ah but who wants to save energy? :D I go out to get knackered.

So do many of us but my knackered may be your pleasant amble and there'll be a whole spectrum of riders between the two, and some riders that my pleasant amble may be their knackered .

Just to point out what we all know . None of us want the same thing.

That's a given,but it's not what's being discussed,it's more the ever more narrower remit of groupsets offered by the big three and the ever narrower technicality of their offerings,that's beginning to be a burden and not a liberation for cyclists in general,more so specifically touring and leisure cyclists.
Example:-
I can't pedal a gear bigger than 90inch on the flat(some may want something a little bigger but no more than 100inch would suffice),which with a reasonable cadence of around 90rpm is 25mph!
I need a 20inch gear to get me up 15%,I also don't like yawning gaps between gears as it's a shock to my old knees.
I'd suggest I'm in the majority,and the majority are not being catered for that's the fact of it
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peetee
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby peetee » 28 Jul 2019, 1:44pm

reohn2 wrote:
PH wrote:
They offer some trekking branded groups, so the only indication is that they don't consider the drop bar touring market worth catering specifically for. Have they ever?

I don't think they do or ever have,but conicidentaly Shimano 3x9sp worked very well for dropped bar touring enthusiasts,but went out the window with the advent of 10sp along with the dropping of triples in the higher end groupsets,though Stonglight Impact and Spa Cycles filled the gap,along with lower end Claris and Sora triple STI's or bar end or DT levers.


+1

The design specifics of many Shimano components make individual tailoring of gear ratios a bit of a gamble. I have tried to change cassette ratios and chainring sizes on 9 and 10 speed systems and failed to get them to run properly. That was something that was very easy to do on 1st generation index 7 speed.
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Too many bikes on pegs and too few miles in the legs.