Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

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reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jul 2019, 2:02pm

peetee wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
PH wrote:
They offer some trekking branded groups, so the only indication is that they don't consider the drop bar touring market worth catering specifically for. Have they ever?

I don't think they do or ever have,but conicidentaly Shimano 3x9sp worked very well for dropped bar touring enthusiasts,but went out the window with the advent of 10sp along with the dropping of triples in the higher end groupsets,though Stonglight Impact and Spa Cycles filled the gap,along with lower end Claris and Sora triple STI's or bar end or DT levers.


+1

The design specifics of many Shimano components make individual tailoring of gear ratios a bit of a gamble. I have tried to change cassette ratios and chainring sizes on 9 and 10 speed systems and failed to get them to run properly. That was something that was very easy to do on 1st generation index 7 speed.

They can have their problems depending on positioning of ramps on the out of sequence individual sprockets.
I'm currently in the process of trying a 12-26(12,13,14,15,17,1,9,21,23,26) Sram PG950 cassette splitting it,ditching the 12,13t cogs,replacing the 14t with a 14t Shimano top cog from a HG400 14-25t, and adding a 30 and 34t from a Shimano Deore HG on the low end to give me the range.This will keep all sprockets in sequence.
I'll report back after testing :)
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David9694
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby David9694 » 28 Jul 2019, 2:34pm

OP here. There’s a fettle I didn’t know about, boshing rings together. Most everyday production bikes largely waste the top 20% of the available gear range. So a 14t to 34t cassette goes on the shopping list?

But isn’t it worse than that? 30 mph on a descent is a frightening speed (you’ve presumably topped out your gears) and anything above 20 if you come round a corner to an obstruction like a car taking up 75% of the road, or pulling out, you’re not going to stop and you’ll be fortunate if you can steer your way through.

pete75
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby pete75 » 28 Jul 2019, 2:37pm

reohn2 wrote:
mattsccm wrote:Ah but who wants to save energy? :D I go out to get knackered.

So do many of us but my knackered may be your pleasant amble and there'll be a whole spectrum of riders between the two, and some riders that my pleasant amble may be their knackered .

Just to point out what we all know . None of us want the same thing.

That's a given,but it's not what's being discussed,it's more the ever more narrower remit of groupsets offered by the big three and the ever narrower technicality of their offerings,that's beginning to be a burden and not a liberation for cyclists in general,more so specifically touring and leisure cyclists.
Example:-
I can't pedal a gear bigger than 90inch on the flat(some may want something a little bigger but no more than 100inch would suffice),which with a reasonable cadence of around 90rpm is 25mph!
I need a 20inch gear to get me up 15%,I also don't like yawning gaps between gears as it's a shock to my old knees.
I'd suggest I'm in the majority,and the majority are not being catered for that's the fact of it


Too true. Once you get to a certain age gears off 20" and below are of far more interest than a 100" and above.

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Tigerbiten
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby Tigerbiten » 28 Jul 2019, 4:07pm

David9694 wrote:But isn’t it worse than that? 30 mph on a descent is a frightening speed (you’ve presumably topped out your gears) and anything above 20 if you come round a corner to an obstruction like a car taking up 75% of the road, or pulling out, you’re not going to stop and you’ll be fortunate if you can steer your way through.

It all depends on your definition of "fun".

I only need roughly a 5% downhill run to hit 30 mph.
So I'll be topping 30 mph on most runs.
Now hitting +40 mph so I can finally use my top gear is much more rare.
But when I do reach +40 mph, I'm sure to have a recumbent :D .

In the right circumstances, I find ultra high gears are useful.
But never at the expense of having low gears.

Luck ............ :D

mongoose
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby mongoose » 29 Jul 2019, 10:13pm

Shimano do make touring gears, just they are harder to find in the UK but no problem in Germany. I built my tourer using Shimano kit - a T671 chainset - 48/36/26, T671 RD, T781 FD with an XT 10 speed 11-36 cassette all sourced in the UK but from different suppliers. On 700C/35 tyres this gives a range of 119 to 20 inches. You can swap the 26 for a 24 to go lower though just outside the long cage RD capacity.

I am definitely of "certain age" category and need the 20 inch to get up anything over 17%. As for using the 119 inch top gear, it only gets used downhill and remember last year managing 42mph, loaded, on the descent from the Reschenpass in the Alps - great fun. Hydraulic discs help with the stopping.

mattsccm
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby mattsccm » 30 Jul 2019, 8:46am

"a burden and not a liberation for cyclists in general"
I must say that this is rather generalisation.
Why should it be a burden? Given that most riders I know happily wanted newer rather than anything specific I doubt it matters if they have one gear or 50.
I think that your comments are aimed at a section of the cycling community that want a specific product with the assumption that its a majority and that we all need the same. The replies to this post show that.
I bet that touring cyclists are a tiny proportion of the cycling world hence the lack of specialist kit.
Despite this I do agree in some ways that what is on the market doesn't really suit the tourist but then it never really did. What was out there was a generation of kit that suited some people. The same thoughts were going round the pub when I first joined my cycling club in 1979.

reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jul 2019, 9:28am

mattsccm wrote:"a burden and not a liberation for cyclists in general"
I must say that this is rather generalisation.
Why should it be a burden? Given that most riders I know happily wanted newer rather than anything specific I doubt it matters if they have one gear or 50.
I think that your comments are aimed at a section of the cycling community that want a specific product with the assumption that its a majority and that we all need the same. The replies to this post show that.
I bet that touring cyclists are a tiny proportion of the cycling world hence the lack of specialist kit.
Despite this I do agree in some ways that what is on the market doesn't really suit the tourist but then it never really did. What was out there was a generation of kit that suited some people. The same thoughts were going round the pub when I first joined my cycling club in 1979.

My point was that as sprocket numbers increase on the rear and decrease on the front drivetrain components become evermore technical and their application evermore narrow.
Example all 9sp rear mechs will work and index with 6,7,8 or 9sp with the reletive shifter,10,11and12,only work with their specific shifter and specific mech for a specific sprocket number.
6,7,8,9sp front mechs double for double or triple for triple work with their specific double or triple mechs but a triple shifter will operate double chainsets.7,8and9sp
MTB and road cable pulls are different though a road mech can be used with an MTB shifter if using only two chainrings.
The triple is being phased out by Shimano in all but the lower end groupsets in favour of compact doubles or 1x chainsets with evermore rear sprockets,which either limits range or has yawning gaps between ratios at a cost(literally as much as technically)ever narrower and fragile chains and the need for evermore precise indexing as a result.

Now I know I'll be branded a luddite by some but what does a more technical drivetrain with very specific mechs and shifters,gazillions of sprockets on the rear and one or too chainrings at most,offer over a 3x9sp or even a 3x8sp system and the flexibility of mech compatability across that range?

I'm of the opinion that cycling is becoming more technical because it can rather than because it should,not everthing that shines is gold and cycling is being driven down an ever narrower(sorry)technical path at the cost of and useful innovation for the vast majority of cyclists and not just tourists.

EDIT,I forgot about the craziness of 10t sprockets,as if 11t aren't bad enough :?
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PH
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby PH » 30 Jul 2019, 11:45am

mattsccm wrote:I bet that touring cyclists are a tiny proportion of the cycling world hence the lack of specialist kit.

To repeat myself - Shimano cater for touring cyclists with specific groupsets, it's the niche of touring cyclists using drop bars and still wanting STI that struggle to match components. It's not hard to understand why, for most of the world drop bars = racing. The increasing popularity of drop bar bikes capable of some off road riding (Which for some odd reason sometimes gets derided on here) has broken this link and although not specifically for touring there is some useful crossover.

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Tigerbiten
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby Tigerbiten » 30 Jul 2019, 1:39pm

Part of the problem is a generation gap.

I'm from a generation where triples where common, doubles were only used when racing and single chainrings were only on "sit up and beg" grandfather bikes.
With this generation then 2x are the most common, 1x are starting to come in and 3x are seen as old fashioned.
Also I learnt what gears I wanted/needed by putting the miles in and wearing out cassettes and chainrings.
Every new drivetrain was slightly different from the one before and by the time I was on my 4th-5th drivetrain I knew what worked for me and what didn't.
But until you've put that type of work in, you can only go marketing hype.
And the latest marketing hype is 1x is the best.
So will the next generation think 1x is normal.

reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jul 2019, 4:21pm

From up thread
reohn2 wrote:I'm currently in the process of trying a 12-26(12,13,14,15,17,19,21,23,26) Sram PG950 cassette splitting it,ditching the 12,13t cogs,replacing the 14t with a 14t Shimano top cog from a HG400 14-25t, and adding a 30 and 34t from a Shimano Deore HG on the low end to give me the range.This will keep all sprockets in sequence.
I'll report back after testing :)

OK,the 12-26t Sram cassette arrived today and everything's gone to plan,changes are as slick as a slick thing on slick day. :D
So I've just ordered three more to stock up,at the unbelievable price of £7.60each :D :- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SRAM-PG-950- ... ect=mobile
Last edited by reohn2 on 30 Jul 2019, 8:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Greystoke
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby Greystoke » 30 Jul 2019, 5:34pm

When I was a lad my new touring bike had 36/52 up front and a 6 speed 14-28, that was a touring bike and an improvement over the touring bike I toured Scotland on with 42/52 and 5 speed 14-28

The point is you can tour on anything but I now need much lower gears!

landsurfer
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby landsurfer » 30 Jul 2019, 6:45pm

I have a 9 speed set up with a combo of Shimano and Spa components ..... 12-40 cassette, SPA single front chainset with a 36 tooth ring and a Deore rear derailleur ....Deore hubs, Tektro canties with SORA levers ... 3000 mile later i wouldn't change it .... My Touring Groupset ... :D
Last edited by landsurfer on 30 Jul 2019, 8:12pm, edited 2 times in total.
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

scottg
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby scottg » 30 Jul 2019, 7:50pm

Greystoke wrote:When I was a lad my new touring bike had 36/52 up front and a 6 speed 14-28,



Back when people were smarter, Simplex Tourist rings were 44/28 or 46/30.
Farther back Vernon Blake didn't need any fancy derailleur, he used the
floating chain system and had even lower gears.
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reohn2
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby reohn2 » 30 Jul 2019, 8:11pm

scottg wrote:
Greystoke wrote:When I was a lad my new touring bike had 36/52 up front and a 6 speed 14-28,



Back when people were smarter, Simplex Tourist rings were 44/28 or 46/30.
Farther back Vernon Blake didn't need any fancy derailleur, he used the
floating chain system and had even lower gears.

And of course we can't forget Paul de Vivie aka Velocio :)

Personally a 14-34 9sp cassette with 24-39t chainrings are all the gears I need for a top speed of 25mph and a low enough gear to get me up 15% on gravel tracks :D
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landsurfer
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Re: Touring Groupset - Dear Shimano

Postby landsurfer » 30 Jul 2019, 9:16pm

24 tooth front chainring .. !! i'm jealous .... i did my lejog on a single 26 tooth front chainring .... i could have done with a 24 for Helmsdale and Berriedale :)
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.