Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

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pwa
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby pwa » 3 Aug 2019, 11:01am

Most of us don't want to spend a huge sum just on a chainset, and I'm not sure you can even get new Middleburn any more, so the Spa triple converted to double is the most practical way of getting a super-low double chainset if it is required. I did it on a couple of bikes for family members and it looks fine with a black guard ring instead of an outer chain ring. I'm sure Spa would provide that on a new bike if asked. So CJ's preferred route is within reach of mere mortals.

CJ's comments about middle chain rings being flimsy is no doubt correct when it comes to Shimano offerings, but is it as true with the nice upmarket TA rings I use as replacements? I've not noticed them wearing down quickly. And while the middle ring gets most use, it shares the work to some extent with two other rings rather than just one.

Also, using a non-indexed lever for the front change, as I do, makes shifting that chain easier. It is going whether it wants to or not. There is none of that hoping that one click on the STI lever will bring about the desired movement. I just pull or push that lever until the chain goes where I want it. And that brings me to the conclusion that indexed front shifting creates issues that you don't get with non-indexed. I've tried both, having lived with STIs and Ergos for a good few years, and I would not try to operate STIs with a triple again. If STIs are a must, I think a double would be my recommendation.

Brucey
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby Brucey » 3 Aug 2019, 11:35am

as I mentioned upthread, if the 'compact double' chainset you are buying is really a converted triple anyway, you can try both setups and see what floats your boat.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

slowster
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby slowster » 3 Aug 2019, 12:48pm

pwa wrote:Most of us don't want to spend a huge sum just on a chainset, and I'm not sure you can even get new Middleburn any more

Middleburn was taken over a few years ago by BETD, and the manufacturing was moved from the south coast to Stoke on Trent. A complete Incy chainset as used by CJ including spider and chainrings would not leave much change from £200 (or £250 if the external bottom bracket version), and some of the components are currently 'out of stock'.

mercalia
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby mercalia » 8 Aug 2019, 12:26pm

They dont call the smallest ring of a triple a granny ring for nothing?

mercalia
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby mercalia » 8 Aug 2019, 12:29pm

pwa wrote:Most of us don't want to spend a huge sum just on a chainset, and I'm not sure you can even get new Middleburn any more, so the Spa triple converted to double is the most practical way of getting a super-low double chainset if it is required. I did it on a couple of bikes for family members and it looks fine with a black guard ring instead of an outer chain ring. I'm sure Spa would provide that on a new bike if asked. So CJ's preferred route is within reach of mere mortals.

CJ's comments about middle chain rings being flimsy is no doubt correct when it comes to Shimano offerings, but is it as true with the nice upmarket TA rings I use as replacements? I've not noticed them wearing down quickly. And while the middle ring gets most use, it shares the work to some extent with two other rings rather than just one.

Also, using a non-indexed lever for the front change, as I do, makes shifting that chain easier. It is going whether it wants to or not. There is none of that hoping that one click on the STI lever will bring about the desired movement. I just pull or push that lever until the chain goes where I want it. And that brings me to the conclusion that indexed front shifting creates issues that you don't get with non-indexed. I've tried both, having lived with STIs and Ergos for a good few years, and I would not try to operate STIs with a triple again. If STIs are a must, I think a double would be my recommendation.


well have things changed so much since the days of the RSX system?. My RSX 46/36/26 with RSX sti shifters works fine. I suppose you just have to get the right bits?

pwa
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby pwa » 8 Aug 2019, 12:55pm

mercalia wrote:
pwa wrote:Most of us don't want to spend a huge sum just on a chainset, and I'm not sure you can even get new Middleburn any more, so the Spa triple converted to double is the most practical way of getting a super-low double chainset if it is required. I did it on a couple of bikes for family members and it looks fine with a black guard ring instead of an outer chain ring. I'm sure Spa would provide that on a new bike if asked. So CJ's preferred route is within reach of mere mortals.

CJ's comments about middle chain rings being flimsy is no doubt correct when it comes to Shimano offerings, but is it as true with the nice upmarket TA rings I use as replacements? I've not noticed them wearing down quickly. And while the middle ring gets most use, it shares the work to some extent with two other rings rather than just one.

Also, using a non-indexed lever for the front change, as I do, makes shifting that chain easier. It is going whether it wants to or not. There is none of that hoping that one click on the STI lever will bring about the desired movement. I just pull or push that lever until the chain goes where I want it. And that brings me to the conclusion that indexed front shifting creates issues that you don't get with non-indexed. I've tried both, having lived with STIs and Ergos for a good few years, and I would not try to operate STIs with a triple again. If STIs are a must, I think a double would be my recommendation.


well have things changed so much since the days of the RSX system?. My RSX 46/36/26 with RSX sti shifters works fine. I suppose you just have to get the right bits?

My main experience was with triple Ultegra 9 speed over quite a few years. The rear shift was plain and simple, great. The front required a tad more thought, and when that tad is multiplied over however many shifts I did to get around a Welsh 400km Audax it gets a bit tiresome. Mini push to trim rather than big push to drop down onto a smaller ring is thinking I'd prefer not to have to do on a long ride.

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Sweep
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby Sweep » 8 Aug 2019, 1:33pm

whoof wrote:There is a 12-36 9 speed Shimano cassette available.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Shimano- ... bwRWJaiBvg

12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36


Yes tis a wondrous thing - my Ridgeback Expedition 26inch wheeler came with one so I have stocked up.

Who needs crazily expensive dinner plate cassette set ups when you can get this as standard equipment used with a triple?

The 12-36 is quite probably cheaper from Rose of Germany (in fact pretty sure it is) - that's where my spares came from.

As I age I can see it coming into play on some of my other bikes.

edit in case anyone intersted:

Here:

https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/shimano-cs- ... size=12-36

£11.71 - postage on top yes but savings on lots of other stuff.
Last edited by Sweep on 9 Aug 2019, 12:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sweep

Brucey
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby Brucey » 8 Aug 2019, 1:51pm

pwa wrote:
mercalia wrote:
well have things changed so much since the days of the RSX system?. My RSX 46/36/26 with RSX sti shifters works fine. I suppose you just have to get the right bits?

My main experience was with triple Ultegra 9 speed over quite a few years. The rear shift was plain and simple, great. The front required a tad more thought, and when that tad is multiplied over however many shifts I did to get around a Welsh 400km Audax it gets a bit tiresome. Mini push to trim rather than big push to drop down onto a smaller ring is thinking I'd prefer not to have to do on a long ride.


IIRC RSX triple had no trim clicks in the STI shifters and (because it was 7/8s) the chain could have lots of clearance in the FD; this combined with a small set of chainrings meant most folk didn't get intractable rubbing problems, a bit like an MTB triple I suppose.

More recent STI-based road triples are nearly always a lot more finicky than this; shimano have tried upteen different protocols for trim clicks (and all of them are flawed BTW) and if you use big chainrings/narrow FDs rubbing is never far away. 'Tiresome' is I think an apt word.

BTW re cassettes the 12-36 is good but has a big gap between 18 and 21, just where it is most annoying. I'd be so much happier with 13-36.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NetworkMan
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby NetworkMan » 10 Aug 2019, 12:20pm

Brucey wrote:
BTW re cassettes the 12-36 is good but has a big gap between 18 and 21, just where it is most annoying. I'd be so much happier with 13-36.

cheers

Actually I was just musing about altering the 11-32 9 speed which I've recently put on the Spa Audax.
It has:-
11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32
So remove 11 & 13 substituting a 13 top and add 36 at the bottom to get:-
13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
Average ratio step is 13.5%. Maximum 16.7% at 24-28 which is probably too low to matter anyway.
No clunking due to mismatching except at the extremes of the range and if you get lucky with the 36T and 13T that might not even happen.

Edit:-
It's like 531Colin's 'nightmare solution' from 13-21 but then the gaps get larger so as to finish at 36T rather than 34T.

Brucey
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby Brucey » 10 Aug 2019, 12:52pm

BTDT; no need to replace the 13T, just use a different lockring (if necessary).

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NetworkMan
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby NetworkMan » 10 Aug 2019, 3:45pm

Brucey wrote:BTDT; no need to replace the 13T, just use a different lockring (if necessary).

cheers

Hmmm... While the 12T next-to-top on my old HG50-9 has serrations to suit a lock ring I don't think that the 13T on the HG201 does. Hard to be sure without taking it apart again. Did yours have serrations?

PH
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby PH » 16 Aug 2019, 12:35pm

PH wrote:
keyboardmonkey wrote:
PH wrote:... And although I know not everyone agrees, IMO the traditional Audax bike is dead, you can get bikes that do everything they do without the tyre size restriction. I'm not at all surprised they're becoming less common on Audax rides, a considerable difference to a decade ago.

That’s interesting. If it’s okay to have a little thread drift what is replacing the traditional Audax bike? I’m a bit out of the loop.

...fall roughly into two camps; Road bikes, hardly any compromise to comfort, no guards, very little luggage capacity, predominantly carbon, 22 - 28mm tyres. The other type is the sort of bike popularised by self supported racing - disc brake, wider tyres, carbon or metal with a carbon fork, often no guards, and any luggage of the bikepacking variety. PBP is coming up later this month, no doubt there'll be plenty of photos and I'd be surprised if the British contingent didn't match what I've just said. (I don't know what's popular in other countries)

A re-visit to this if anyone is interested
Over the road on YACF there's thread about the bikes posters have taken to France for the PBP, a few bikes, only one of which is what gets sold as an Audax bike and that's ti rather than steel.
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=112991.0

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby Bmblbzzz » 16 Aug 2019, 3:53pm

Which is the one that you consider "gets sold as an audax bike"? Phil W's? Parkysouthlondon's? Martynwheeler's? Or something else?

Brucey
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby Brucey » 16 Aug 2019, 3:58pm

NetworkMan wrote:
Brucey wrote:BTDT; no need to replace the 13T, just use a different lockring (if necessary).

cheers

Hmmm... While the 12T next-to-top on my old HG50-9 has serrations to suit a lock ring I don't think that the 13T on the HG201 does. Hard to be sure without taking it apart again. Did yours have serrations?


IIRC it did, but my memory might be playing tricks on me; it is a while ago now. If not, a spot of threadlock on the lockring will do.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PH
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Re: Audax Bike (Spa?) with Tourer Gearing & Double vs. Triple

Postby PH » 16 Aug 2019, 4:39pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:Which is the one that you consider "gets sold as an audax bike"? Phil W's? Parkysouthlondon's? Martynwheeler's? Or something else?

The Van Nik Yukon, it's promoted by the manufacturer as an Audax bike, it meets Brucy's description and I believe Paul Smith (Occasionally poster here) had a hand in tweaking the design to meet UK conditions and preferences.
Did you think any of the others would be sold as Audax bikes? Which ones? I'm not questioning the suitability, just the convention that I believe is now outdated.