Things we need not invented yet

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 10 Aug 2019, 9:57am

Hi,
A light weight racing bike that doesn't need two hands to retrieve after falling off :roll:
"G"
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

Brucey
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby Brucey » 10 Aug 2019, 10:13am

re wheels: anyone who says ' I use/have used XYZ and I did/didn't break it' brings potentially valuable experience to the party. But any one such comment is just one (self selecting) data point out of a potential set of millions. The fact is that not all wheels are built the same (even from the same parts) and that conditions of use vary wildly, often even without the riders knowing this is the case. No one can say for sure that your 'Carlos Nospoko' wheels will or won't break on a weekend's touring, only (at best) that it is or isn't more likely than with a different wheelset.

So its (as ever) a question of 'good' vs 'better' vs 'best'.

For touring arguably

'good' is any wheel that is not utter rubbish, has been stress-relieved and is made from parts that are unlikely to break immediately

'better' is any wheel which also has a reduced dish, and/or more spokes, and/or parts that fit together better, and/or a stronger rim

'best' is any wheel which exploits these things (or any one thing) to the fullest extent.

So you can ride everywhere on an expedition tourer and the wheels almost certainly won't break. Most folk don't do this and use something else. In the real world most folk only occasionally carry a load and don't want to carry the extra weight around the rest of the time, and may be prepared to accept some added risk during their occasional more loaded jaunts.

The three parameters that most folk are likely to be concerned about are strength, weight and cost. But strength is not the same as durability, quite, and there are other factors such as stiffness, aerodynamics, maintainability, availability of spare parts, wear life, repairability and so on. Some folk have different priorities; for example replacing a spoke might be a mystery to them, or they would see no advantage to having adjustable hub bearings because they don't know how to adjust them.

I've seen many (thousands) of wheels that failed. Most of them failed because they were not even 'good' as per above. But a significant number failed just because they were built too light/too dished/not enough spokes (for the service they saw) and a few broke despite the fact that they appeared to be built strong enough but weren't, in some subtle way.

Thus I repeat; if you use less dish and more spokes, the wheel can be made stronger for any given weight. In extremis this can mean a wheel that is about as light as it possibly could be, yet is extremely reliable. For example I have a rear wheel that is built undished using 36DB spokes and a rim that weighs about 430g. This wheel has done somewhere near 80000 (mostly hard) miles and has only once or twice needed any attention with a spoke key. [It is probably going be 'retired' soon because it has successfully outlasted every other part on the bike (in many cases several times over) and I think the inner part of the double eyelets may corrode away to nothing (if it hasn't happened already).] In the meantime many other (more dished, heavier built, better treated) wheels on other bikes have come and gone, having fallen by the wayside as it were.

So if you want to have your cake and eat it, you can do more or less; you can have a wheelset that is built light and yet is strong/durable enough for occasional touring jaunts; my recipe for this would involve less dish, possibly an asymmetric rim, and an unfashionable number of spokes.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

reohn2
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby reohn2 » 10 Aug 2019, 10:24am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
.........Brucey When you nip out for a bottle of milk or a paper, park your bike at the side, will look a bit out of place and old-fashioned next to R2s 2.3 Shod Adventure machine :-)

They're 29er x 2.4inch and they're on my MTB which I don't ride to the shops on :) .
The other two bikes are on 37's and 47's and a darned sight more comfortable than anything on 23's,but then I ride a lot of rough stuff that would kill a 23mm tyre.
Keep pushing the envelope and it'll burst sooner rather than later :wink:

PS,the bike I do ride to the shops is a 20in wheel folder with 2inch Big Apples fitted :D
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bagpussctc
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby bagpussctc » 10 Aug 2019, 10:46am

Back in the 90's I had a Campag tandem hub rear 40 h on a Mavic touring rim for my solo . Plain gauge spokes. Never broke a spoke etc. The rim wall wore out after 10's of 1,000 's of miles . I still have the hub.

pwa
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby pwa » 10 Aug 2019, 10:59am

The title of this thread is about things we need, but I don't honestly feel that stronger wheels are high on my list of priorities. I've had no major issues on that front for decades. I choose between 32 and 36 spoke, so I am conservative, and with 9 speed and my own usage pattern spoke breakages don't happen. But all my wheels have been ordered by me, not acquired as part of a bike without me being able to speak to the workshop they come from.

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TrevA
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby TrevA » 10 Aug 2019, 11:27am

pwa wrote:
TrevA wrote:Bombproof wheels that can cope with someone who weighs more than 80kg without shedding spokes that don’t cost an arm and a leg.

I'm probably closer to 100kg than 80 and over many thousands of miles I haven't broken a spoke since about 1990. My broken spokes came when I was touring on 7 speed hubs. 9 speed is my happy zone, 130mm and 135mm OLN, and whatever the theory, they are strong enough to take me reliably. For a pair of touring wheels I would go to somewhere like Spa and pay what it costs to get well made wheels using sensible components. I'd not pay more than it takes to get that, but nor would I cut corners by looking for cheaper wheels that may have no integrity.


Then you’ve been very lucky or have found an excellent wheel builder. I’m heavier - currently 105 kg but have been as heavy as 115kg. I’ve had wheels from Spa and they are no better than anyone else’s. A touring 135 rear ( Deore on a Sputnik rim) that started pinging spokes at 18 months and broke 4 before I gave up on it.

I’ve had a pair of 32 spoke Open Pro’s on 105 hubs that I bought second hand from a forum member, that gave 4 years of perfect service until the rear rim wore out. had it re-built and it started pinging spokes straight away! So much depends on the builder with a hand built wheel. I’m not a big fan of Open Pros but there doesn’t seem to be much else widely available. My favourite CXP33’s don’t seem to be, anymore.

I’ve not had much better luck with Factory built wheels. I’ve had 2 pairs of Fulcrums that have given good service, but a third pair that pinged a spoke after less than a year.
Last edited by TrevA on 10 Aug 2019, 11:34am, edited 1 time in total.

pwa
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby pwa » 10 Aug 2019, 11:29am

On the subject of wheels, what I would like is a version of one of those ceramic or tungsten carbide brake surfaces that is about as tough as the rim (won't flake off or chip), prevents brake wear and has no adverse effect on braking even when new. My old CSS (tungsten carbide) rims are great now they are worn in but were terrible for wet weather braking when they were new. So nearly a great product.

pwa
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby pwa » 10 Aug 2019, 11:35am

TrevA wrote:
pwa wrote:
TrevA wrote:Bombproof wheels that can cope with someone who weighs more than 80kg without shedding spokes that don’t cost an arm and a leg.

I'm probably closer to 100kg than 80 and over many thousands of miles I haven't broken a spoke since about 1990. My broken spokes came when I was touring on 7 speed hubs. 9 speed is my happy zone, 130mm and 135mm OLN, and whatever the theory, they are strong enough to take me reliably. For a pair of touring wheels I would go to somewhere like Spa and pay what it costs to get well made wheels using sensible components. I'd not pay more than it takes to get that, but nor would I cut corners by looking for cheaper wheels that may have no integrity.


Then you’ve been very lucky or have found an excellent wheel builder. I’m heavier - currently 105 kg but have been as heavy as 115kg. I’ve had wheels from Spa and they are no better than anyone else’s. A touring 135 rear ( Deore on a Sputnik rim) that started pinging spokes at 18 months and broke 4 before I gave up on it.

I’ve had a pair of Open Pro’s on 105 hubs that I bought second hand from a forum member, that gave 4 years of perfect service until the rear rim wore out. had it re-built and it started pinging spokes straight away! So much depends on the builder with a hand built wheel.

I’ve not had much better luck with Factory built wheels. I’ve had 2 pairs of Fulcrums that have given good service, but a third pair that pinged a spoke after less than a year.


Sorry to hear of your woes Trev. Going off topic, in your position I would still order from somewhere like Spa, but also acquire the means to fix spoke breakages as and when they happen. Maybe you do that already. And request the strongest available spokes from the outset. Are your breakages confined to the driveside rear?

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TrevA
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby TrevA » 10 Aug 2019, 11:46am

The Spa wheels starting pinging on the NDS. They use lighter spokes on the NDS for reasons that aren’t clear to me. It’s quite often the NDS spokes on a not-so-well-built wheel that seem to go. These are the ones that go slacker when being ridden and it seems to be this that causes the spoke failure.

I’ve lost faith in Spa, after believing all the hype about them. My latest touring wheels are from SJS and are holding up better - Deore on Mavic A319s with 36 spokes. I still need to find a source of good wheels for my road bikes - might give SJS a try for them.

pwa
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby pwa » 10 Aug 2019, 12:22pm

TrevA wrote:The Spa wheels starting pinging on the NDS. They use lighter spokes on the NDS for reasons that aren’t clear to me. It’s quite often the NDS spokes on a not-so-well-built wheel that seem to go. These are the ones that go slacker when being ridden and it seems to be this that causes the spoke failure.

I’ve lost faith in Spa, after believing all the hype about them. My latest touring wheels are from SJS and are holding up better - Deore on Mavic A319s with 36 spokes. I still need to find a source of good wheels for my road bikes - might give SJS a try for them.

The lighter butted spokes on the Spa are what some wheel makers use on both sides. I have an old rear wheel made that way by Spa. The rim wore down so I (with no experience other than a bit of truing) replaced that rim with another I already had (same dimensions of course) and re-using the spokes. Still good several years and lots of miles later. I think you probably had a duff batch of spokes. Blame Sapim or whoever it is.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 10 Aug 2019, 12:22pm

Hi,
I don't do rough stuff so i better stick to the smooth stuff :P
But on the other hand it's not what you got but how you use it :)
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

Brucey
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby Brucey » 10 Aug 2019, 12:34pm

TrevA wrote:The Spa wheels starting pinging on the NDS. They use lighter spokes on the NDS for reasons that aren’t clear to me. It’s quite often the NDS spokes on a not-so-well-built wheel that seem to go. These are the ones that go slacker when being ridden and it seems to be this that causes the spoke failure.

I’ve lost faith in Spa, after believing all the hype about them. My latest touring wheels are from SJS and are holding up better - Deore on Mavic A319s with 36 spokes. I still need to find a source of good wheels for my road bikes - might give SJS a try for them.


DId the spokes break at the elbow or the thread? If so the 'lighter spokes' wouldn't (couldn't) be making the difference; they are still 14G at the elbow and at the thread.

IME NDS spoke breakages are most usually caused by inadequate stress-relief. Other things can cause it too but it soon gets complicated.

In some wheels (eg with sputnik rims) the nipple is often at a slight angle to the spoke when the wheel is built and this can cause spoke breakages (at the nipple) if precautions are not taken. With most SF hubs I think good stress-relief ought to be sufficient. With larger flange hubs I always reset the eyelets so that the nipples are in line with the spokes. The first time I did this I didn't have the right tool to do the job and it took a while to do it right (because I hadn't done it before) but now I do it on nearly all the wheels I build using those rims.

cheers
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pete75
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby pete75 » 10 Aug 2019, 12:40pm

al_yrpal wrote:As for the lock, I fitted a Dutch Bike Lock https://www.dutchbikebits.com/axa-defender-wheel-lock to my electric bike, with this lock you can also plug in an additional cable to secure it to something immovable. British bike theives are probably unfamiliar with this type of lock and I believe it will be more secure. Its simple, you can lock the bike in seconds and you cant lose the key so easily.

As for that invention...a saddle that treats my bum kindly please. In 13 years of recent cycling I havent found one. :?

Al

They can carry the bike away in seconds and cut the lock with an angle grinder at their leisure or even on the post. Reliable, tough battery powered angle grinders are available for not much money. I've got quite an expensive one but a friend recently bought an 18v grinder from Lidl for 39 quid and it works just as well. Fitted with a decent metal cutting disk it's something no self respecting bike thief should be without.

pwa
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby pwa » 10 Aug 2019, 12:48pm

pete75 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:As for the lock, I fitted a Dutch Bike Lock https://www.dutchbikebits.com/axa-defender-wheel-lock to my electric bike, with this lock you can also plug in an additional cable to secure it to something immovable. British bike theives are probably unfamiliar with this type of lock and I believe it will be more secure. Its simple, you can lock the bike in seconds and you cant lose the key so easily.

As for that invention...a saddle that treats my bum kindly please. In 13 years of recent cycling I havent found one. :?

Al

They can carry the bike away in seconds and cut the lock with an angle grinder at their leisure or even on the post. Reliable, tough battery powered angle grinders are available for not much money. I've got quite an expensive one but a friend recently bought an 18v grinder from Lidl for 39 quid and it works just as well. Fitted with a decent metal cutting disk it's something no self respecting bike thief should be without.

Yep. I once had to remove one of my own gold standard U locks when the key broke off and the disc cutter I used had it off in about 30 seconds. I could have cut through the steel railings it was attached to just as easily.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Things we need not invented yet

Postby al_yrpal » 10 Aug 2019, 12:59pm

Its not so easy to cut a Dutch bike lock with an angle grinder without damaging the adjacent stays and wheel although I expect Dutch bike thieves have got it sussed. My thought was that kind of lock is quite rare and unfamiliar to many thieves here in the UK particularly casual ones judging by the comments about it I have recieved.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!