Spokes on Maddux 3.0 Disc

[LinusR]

Some advice needed. I've broken a spoke on the non-drive side of a rear wheel. The wheels are Maddux CX 3.0 Disc, 36 spokes on Formula hubs - OEM on a Cannondale CAADX (subject to fork recall). I've measured the broken spoke and checked it against the others on the rim and the size is 280mm (from internal elbow to end). They are painted black, plain gauge and 1.8mm diameter. No idea what material they are. It broke at the nipple just at the beginning of the threaded section. Since I have to order the spokes I'm minded to get a few spares and may even re-build the wheel if another spoke pops.

I usually build wheels with double butted silver stainless steel spokes (2.0mm - 1.8mm - 2.0mm) and my preference is to order this type of spoke for both wheels as spares with a mind to re-building the pair of wheels in future. In other words, I'm going to order a full set of spokes for both wheels and a few for spares. Rear 280mm and 278mm; front 278mm both sides. (Yes, I will be replacing the broken spoke with a different gauge spoke.)

As you can see from the photo above the label describes them as "eyeleted spoke holes". So it is either the wrong label or someone in the factory forgot to fit the eyelets - on both wheels!. (I also have a Mavic 29er rim with a 27.5 label... )

The rims are otherwise fine. No sign of cracks and I'm minded to try to get as much life out of them as possible. Worth doing or false economy? Anyone have any experience with these wheels/rims?

[Brucey]

what you have got there is a 15G spoke set. These are commonly used by Cannondale (and a few other manufacturers) because they are about as light as a DB spoke but as cheap (when bought in bulk) as a PG 14G spoke. When they first started doing this the spokes they used were good quality, e.g. DT spokes. But now they ain't so fussy. The spokes will most likely have a mark on the head that will indicate the manufacturer. IME Maddux wheels are not unreasonably heavy but they are not as strong as they could be for that weight of wheel.

IME if you break a spoke in such wheels it is usually OK if you just replace it (eg with a DB 14-16-14G one which you may be able to source more easily in black). Rim drillings are the same for 15G and 14G nipples, and the hubs won't be drilled for 15G only. Provided you properly stress-relieve the wheel when you do the repair you might (assuming that the spokes fit reasonably well and are not actually defective), if you are unlucky, break another spoke but no more than that. [NB if you don't stress relieve the wheel then you will carry on breaking spokes for sure].

FWIW if you are going to replace all the spokes don't just assume that they used the correct length spoke to build the wheels; double check it by eyeballing the back of the nipples in the built wheel. It is not at all unusual to find that the spokes are all ~2mm too short, which puts extra stress on both the nipples and the threaded end of the spokes. Even on 135mm disc brake wheels the DS spokes are a little over 1mm shorter than the NDS spokes, and in many such matching front wheels the spokes are (or should be) different lengths too.

The use of eyeletless rims is not at all uncommon in factory wheels. They often just use whatever stickers they have lying around, it seems. If the wheel is built with high tension and then sprayed with salty water, such rims very often crack. You can often help prevent this by using washers inside the rim; only the DS spokes need such attention. Obviously the spokes need to be longer to allow for the thickness of the washers. Corrosion proofing the rim drillings (eg using waxoyl) is not at all a bad idea.

FWIW OEM rims on disc brake wheels are often made of fairly soft material, and these wheels are not as strong as they could be as a consequence. If the rim is an ERD that is commonplace then it can be replaced at a later date, but if it is an unusual size then it may be worth thinking of a new rear rim now and keeping the original rear rim as a spare for the front or something.

cheers

[LinusR]

what you have got there is a 15G spoke set. These are commonly used by Cannondale (and a few other manufacturers) because they are about as light as a DB spoke but as cheap (when bought in bulk) as a PG 14G spoke. When they first started doing this the spokes they used were good quality, e.g. DT spokes. But now they ain't so fussy. The spokes will most likely have a mark on the head that will indicate the manufacturer. IME Maddux wheels are not unreasonably heavy but they are not as strong as they could be for that weight of wheel.

Thanks for you analysis Brucey. The spoke has either an N or a Z on the head. I've double-checked the length of the spokes and they are all the correct length. I'll just buy a couple of spare spokes for now and replace the broken one. If a second spoke breaks on that wheel then I'll replace all the spokes with a new set. (Note to self: I must check the hub bearings as well.)

[Brucey]

I think that indicates 'CN' (Chun Nuan) brand spokes. This brand is Taiwanese I think and is very widely used in mass produced bikes/wheels. The mark with the uppercase N is most usually used on 15G spokes, and most usually a lower case 'n' in a circle (or 'C') is found on their 14G spokes. They have other marks they also use. They seem OK quality (OK, but not in the same league as DT or Sapim) in most cases, but the J-bend lengths are very often much longer than they need to be for the hubs they are found in.

Your breakage at the nipple is not surprising to me; in your photo it looks very much as if the spoke takes a fair-sized kink as it enters the nipple. Quite possibly the rim is not angle-drilled, and careful choice of nipple (eg Sapim Polyax) may help a little. I try and avoid building wheels with spokes that have such a pronounced kink, but where there is no choice, the spokes are (IMHO) best given a slight 'set' in that direction before the wheel is stress-relieved.

cheers

[LinusR]

the spokes are (IMHO) best given a slight 'set' in that direction before the wheel is stress-relieved.

I will endeavour to do so. We'll see how many spokes I break in the process. I may end up doing a complete re-build sooner rather than later...

[mattsccm]

Not uncommon with these Cannondale wheels. The other spokes will go soon.

[LinusR]

Not uncommon with these Cannondale wheels. The other spokes will go soon.

So I've heard... But at least the forks haven't snapped yet. https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?p=1379392#p1379392

[LinusR]

Got a couple of pairs of new spokes and replaced broken one. This revealed a slight cock up. My measurements were 2mm short. Instead of (Rear 280mm and 278mm; front 278mm both sides) they should be (Rear 282mm and 280mm; front 280mm both sides). It seems even though I've built plenty of wheels and served an engineering apprenticeship, I can't measure a spoke... But at least I didn't break any stress relieving.

[Solidairs]

Hi Linus. I presume you found some 15g plain gauge spokes for your Maddux wheels. I have searched high and low without success although it seems they are manufactured by several spoke making companies including Sapim and Wheelsmith. Can I ask where you managed to source yours? Many thanks.

[Jamesh]

It does slightly supprise me that s brand like Cannondale still make use of such naff wheels.

Most over brands have managed to supply externally made or own brand wheels that a half decent except Cannondale!

Cheers James

[LinusR]

Hi Linus. I presume you found some 15g plain gauge spokes for your Maddux wheels. I have searched high and low without success although it seems they are manufactured by several spoke making companies including Sapim and Wheelsmith. Can I ask where you managed to source yours? Many thanks.

I actually got some double-butted spokes. Fitted and they work fine. I got them from this ebay shop https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/handbuiltwheels

Edit: I got silver, not black.

[LinusR]

It does slightly supprise me that s brand like Cannondale still make use of such naff wheels.

Most over brands have managed to supply externally made or own brand wheels that a half decent except Cannondale!

Cheers James

I can confirm the hubs are pretty naff as well. They don't have proper cups and cones. Getting a cone spanner on the lock nut is ok. But trying to get a cone spanner on the cone is tricky because it doesn't have a proper machined "flat" - it is instead pressed into a near flat shape and getting a spanner to fit without slipping is very difficult. The hub cone actually worked loose on its own so I took the opportunity to back it off and squirt some grease it. But had difficulty locking it back in place again. I'll just ride them until they break. It's mostly for winter use. I have another pair of handbuilt wheels for other rides. Eventually I'll have to build a set of winter wheels.

[Solidairs]

Many thanks Linus. I had thought as much.I agree completely about Cannondale's use of very average wheelsets. Given the competition on mid-level aluminium bikes such as Specialized and Canyon I think the Jalco/Maddux option could be a definite deal breaker for many potential purposes.

[Brucey]

Cannondale have long fitted wheels with 15g spokes in, but they used to be build with cannondale branded SRAM hubs and would often use DT spokes too. Even those wheels used to crack rims if they saw our weather though.

Wheel upgrades are so commonplace now that many manufacturers view their wheels in the same light as the pedals they are forced to fit; parts that are likely to be replaced sooner rather than later.

FWIW I've worked on several sets of Maddux wheels and IME they usually are not wildly dissimilar to the OEM wheels that you get on treks etc. If you can't adjust the cones, possibly you don't have good cone spanners; there are a lot of rubbish cone spanners out there. FWIW on a lot of disc braked hubs (even six-bolt ones), you need to remove the disc before adjusting the bearings, else you can't get a spanner on the cone at a decent angle.

Most new OEM wheelsets are just a stress-relief and a hub service away from being perfectly adequate. I recommend that you do this when the wheels are new, else by the time you are forced to do something, there may be multiple problems and what should have been avoidable damage.

cheers

[LinusR]

Not uncommon with these Cannondale wheels. The other spokes will go soon.

Indeed, another one on the same side (non-drive side rear) broke today.