Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

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Vantage
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by Vantage »

I've recently done something similar to what the op is considering. It really isn't worth the trouble and money.
I 'upgraded' my Spa Steel Touring to a Spa Wayfarer mostly to be able to use bigger and better tyres (the Touring I had used 26" wheels) but I was also looking forward to no wear on the rims and stronger brakes due to discs being fitted.
I've not been impressed with the new disc brakes at all. Not one little bit. I'm happy at not having to listen to the brake blocks grinding the rims to death but other than that, not worth it. I suspect I've stuffed up the disc pads by getting oil on them and have now ordered new pads to see if things improve but I'm doubtful.
What's it all cost?
£395 for the frame and fork.
£102 for the rear wheel.
£135 for the front (dynamo)
£90 for the calipers and rotors.
£12 for new cables (brake and gear inner and outer (£40 brucey? :shock: )
I've ended up with a nicer handling frame that can use nicer tyres but £700+ for a bike with disc brakes? Just, no. :cry:
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
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Sweep
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by Sweep »

+1 for cycle tramp's response.
Enjoy your riding.
As soon as you changed your mates would probably be extolling something else.
Sweep
CXRAndy
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by CXRAndy »

Are these hydraulic brakes or cable?

I'm afraid to say cable disc brakes are poor at best. On the other hand hydraulic disc brakes are fantastic in all weathers.
Samuel D
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by Samuel D »

CXRAndy wrote:I'm afraid to say cable disc brakes are poor at best.

Poor at what? I suspect you mean they require higher brake-lever force than hydraulic discs. The unthinking assumption that I often encounter is that this means they are better. Why is not described.

Having observed many cyclists use and talk about brakes, I am convinced the main benefit of hydraulic discs as typically experienced is that the low lever force encourages timid riders to brake harder. Some riders are alarmed at the prospect of pulling a lever hard. It feels vaguely unsafe to them. The one-finger power of hydraulic discs is reassuring. But for an experienced rider who knows their equipment, that’s an unconvincing argument.

CXRAndy wrote:On the other hand hydraulic disc brakes are fantastic in all weathers.

What has cable versus hydraulic actuation got to do with braking in the wet?
slowster
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by slowster »

Vantage wrote:I suspect I've stuffed up the disc pads by getting oil on them and have now ordered new pads to see if things improve but I'm doubtful.:

Vantage, make sure you clean the disc before using the new pads. If pads are contaminated with oil, it's likely that some of it will get onto the disc and then contaminate any replacement pads. I would use iso-propyl alcohol, but there are a few other suggestions (some not serious) contained in this thread on Singletrackworld.

You probably need to be prepared for a learning curve with disc brakes to get the best out of them. For example, it's often recommended with new pads of the organic type to do several repeated hard brakes at speed, e.g. going down a hill, to roughen up the pads and improve their friction. Conversely, if you tend to brake gently and gradually from relatively slow speeds that is likely to cause the surface of the pads to glaze over and reduce their friction.
reohn2
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by reohn2 »

rmurphy195 wrote:With disc brakes, rear triangles and forks tend to be a but beefier due, I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) to the way the forces are transmitted to these components, nearer the axle than with rim brakes.

Would the same apply to hub brakes as well?

But that's a plus in a touring bike surely?
Tourers built to take a full four pannier load need to be stiff.

-----------------------------


The drum brake option is a fair point IMO if it weren't for the 12 to 18month bedding in period :shock: .
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reohn2
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by reohn2 »

Vantage wrote:I've recently done something similar to what the op is considering. It really isn't worth the trouble and money.
I 'upgraded' my Spa Steel Touring to a Spa Wayfarer mostly to be able to use bigger and better tyres (the Touring I had used 26" wheels) but I was also looking forward to no wear on the rims and stronger brakes due to discs being fitted.
I've not been impressed with the new disc brakes at all. Not one little bit. I'm happy at not having to listen to the brake blocks grinding the rims to death but other than that, not worth it. I suspect I've stuffed up the disc pads by getting oil on them and have now ordered new pads to see if things improve but I'm doubtful.
What's it all cost?
£395 for the frame and fork.
£102 for the rear wheel.
£135 for the front (dynamo)
£90 for the calipers and rotors.
£12 for new cables (brake and gear inner and outer (£40 brucey? :shock: )
I've ended up with a nicer handling frame that can use nicer tyres but £700+ for a bike with disc brakes? Just, no. :cry:


Bill
I think you have a problem with contaminated pads,once new ones are fitted with thoroughly cleaned rotors and run in(50 miles in mucky conditions should do it,we talked about it last time we met),I'm confident you'll change your mind on discs.
Last edited by reohn2 on 20 Aug 2019, 10:58am, edited 2 times in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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reohn2
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by reohn2 »

CXRAndy wrote:Are these hydraulic brakes or cable?

I'm afraid to say cable disc brakes are poor at best. On the other hand hydraulic disc brakes are fantastic in all weathers.

That's is only true of bad cable discs,good ones such BB7's are great,IME of my many 1000 of miles riding them on solos and tandems.
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PH
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by PH »

Vantage wrote:I've recently done something similar to what the op is considering. It really isn't worth the trouble and money.
I 'upgraded' my Spa Steel Touring to a Spa Wayfarer
<snip>
£700+ for a bike with disc brakes? Just, no. :cry:

There's something wrong with your accounting. Unless you've given the old bike away the cost of the upgrade is the new parts less the value of the old ones.
Brucey
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by Brucey »

slowster wrote: …. it's often recommended with new pads of the organic type to do several repeated hard brakes at speed, e.g. going down a hill, to roughen up the pads and improve their friction....


Thats not quite what is happening when the pads are being bedded in. There are several things going on during the bedding in process of which the two most important are

1) that the pads make full contact with the disc. With new pads of good quality, in a well-aligned caliper, on a new disc, this happens fairly quickly. However with an imperfect trifecta, this may take much longer to happen, if at all.

2) the working face of the friction material is taken through a few thermal cycles.

The latter thing is important with any brake pad which contains friction materials which are held together with a resin binder. This includes many pads which are described as

- organic
- resin
- kevlar
- semi-metallic
- ceramic

amongst other things. AFAICT it is only sintered pads that don't really need 2) above.

What happens is that during heavy braking, the working face of the friction material reaches a high temperature and that temperature profile penetrates into the thickness of the pad material. The resin reacts in thee main way when heated; it melts, outgasses and then finally burns (at higher temperatures). The bedding in process ensures that the face of the pad gets hot enough for burning to occur, which leaves a more porous/resin free 'skin' on the working face of the pads.

By contrast, if you do nothing but gentle braking you will often get melting only near the pads surface (which causes pad glazing to occur) and/or outgassing during normal braking. When the pads are glazed any outgassing is double-bad because the gas cannot escape through the (normally slightly porous) pad material. If the pads are glazed badly enough then it may become almost impossible to retify the situation by simply repeating the bedding-in process; I suspect the brakes simply don't work well enough for the pads to get sufficently hot for anything really useful to happen. 'Deglazing' the pads (eg by abrading their surface) renders the pad surface freer of resin which means there is less burning to do and the suraface of the pad is once again more porous and allows some outgassing to occur before braking is affected.

Once the pads are bedded in, small amounts of further outgassing will occur whenever the pads wear and/or the brakes are used harder than normal i.e. whenever fresh pad material below the surface sees high temperatures for the first time. Because the volume of material thus being affected for the first time is so much less than with a new pad, this fresh outgassing etc is usually tolerated without issues.

cheers
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Vantage
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by Vantage »

Apologies to the op for this minor thread diversion...

@slowster
Brake cleaning spray on its way today so trying that first to see if anything changes, but if not, at least the rotors will be sparkly clean.

@reohn2
I hope you're right John. Last time I had disc brakes was back in 2004-5 and they weren't anywhere near as crap as these current things. I think they were doomed from the start though...soon as I started fitting them my greasy fingers were everywhere :oops:

@PH
Ah! Yes, good point. £500 ish then. Still a fair bit of pocket money though.
Bill


“Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx
It's a rich man whos children run to him when his pockets are empty.
yostumpy
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by yostumpy »

I went from a Bob Jackson World Tour, with cantilever brakes, to a Disc brake tourer when the BJ was written off in an RTA. I could have got the frame repaired/new frame, but went for the disc option, and sold most of the old parts. Brakes are TRP spyre, which are fine, if not good. I have swapped the bars over to flats in the past, and used old Shimano hydaulic, and they are truly awesome(hate that word, but describes them perfectly). But went back to drops, and soon got used to cable discs again. Why did I go disc ? firstly because the bike was just over 1/2 price 3 years ago, ( I saw a link on this very forum), secondly because I wanted ONE bike to do all things, and it does, for me, thirdly I wanted to use the bike for Ruff Stuff riding as well, and grinding rims and buckled wheels are no longer a problem, and it will take bigger tyres with a good clearance. My bike wouldn't cut it amongst the bike snobs, but that doesn't worry me. Now would I have swapped the BJ for a disc tourer if it was still alive, probably not, but having lost the BJ (which I built up myself) , I sat and thought about what I actually wanted from a bike, and Bingo, 2 days later I saw the link on here.
Funny really, how powerful the mind is, 4 months ago I was convinced i needed a recumbent, a HP Velotecknic Streetmachine GTE to be precise. Oh how I lusted, dreamed, read, watched videos, I was convinced it was mine, then it was sold, I was too late, I'm sure it would have been wonderful, but I'm sure I can live without it.
Back to the OP, will Spa cycles not do a trade in for a Wayfarer ? If not maybe SJS will , on some thing else.
reohn2
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by reohn2 »

Yostumpy
Sorry to put you on the spot,but what makes Hydros so much better than cable discs?
I'm trying to get to the bottom of it,people keep saying they're so much better but I've never felt the need to swap my BB7's(I did swap from Spyres to BB7's but that's another story)for hydros.
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yostumpy
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by yostumpy »

reohn2 wrote:Yostumpy
Sorry to put you on the spot,but what makes Hydros so much better than cable discs?
I'm trying to get to the bottom of it,people keep saying they're so much better but I've never felt the need to swap my BB7's(I did swap from Spyres to BB7's but that's another story)for hydros.


That IS a tough one. Hmm! Ok I think one major design floor with cable discs, is the cable. many years ago, decent bikes did away with the full length outer cable, and built on slotted cable stops to the frame.This had the effect of almost eliminating outer cable flex, and compression, except before and after cable stops. Now we seemto have gone backward in offering full length outers. If you want to know how bad cable discs are, un clip the rear cable from its mounting on the frame, so it all hangs loose, then take it for a spin. I was shocked. Obviously with hydraulic calipers there is no flex or compression in the tubing. Also there is no 'lag' , but to be fair the hydraulic calipers were MTB ones,with flat bar levers, (prob all 14 years old). The braking is powerful, overly so , if I'm honest, and so easy to lock either wheel in the dry, so care is needed at first. I believe if cable stops were put on, then the braking would be so much better. I'm happy with Spyres, but to swap them for Hydraulics was a shock, to say the least. Hope this answers your question, but prob not. :wink:
Last edited by yostumpy on 20 Aug 2019, 4:11pm, edited 2 times in total.
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hondated
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Re: Disc frame touring build..or just go buy a bike?

Post by hondated »

Vantage wrote:I've recently done something similar to what the op is considering. It really isn't worth the trouble and money.
I 'upgraded' my Spa Steel Touring to a Spa Wayfarer mostly to be able to use bigger and better tyres (the Touring I had used 26" wheels) but I was also looking forward to no wear on the rims and stronger brakes due to discs being fitted.
I've not been impressed with the new disc brakes at all. Not one little bit. I'm happy at not having to listen to the brake blocks grinding the rims to death but other than that, not worth it. I suspect I've stuffed up the disc pads by getting oil on them and have now ordered new pads to see if things improve but I'm doubtful.
What's it all cost?
£395 for the frame and fork.
£102 for the rear wheel.
£135 for the front (dynamo)
£90 for the calipers and rotors.
£12 for new cables (brake and gear inner and outer (£40 brucey? :shock: )
I've ended up with a nicer handling frame that can use nicer tyres but £700+ for a bike with disc brakes? Just, no. :cry:

Is it safe to assume that the disc brakes you have on your bike are mechanically operated as its my understanding fully hydraulic ones are the ones to go for.
Like you I decided I wanted a bike with bigger tyres and better braking so brought a used Koga Miyata Randonneur which had both of these it having 37mm tyres& V brakes but the price I paid for this at 17kg it just felt too heavy so I sold it on. Thankfully a young lad brought it who is clearly a lot fitter than myself and today leaves on a 6 week tour of Europe on it.
However what I did learn from this experience is that having the bigger tyres definitely gave me a more comfortable ride so its back to saving the pennies to later buy a Gravel bike.
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