Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

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bigjim
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby bigjim » 20 Sep 2019, 5:39pm

Brucey wrote:folk say all kinds of strange things, for example that cantis are an abomination but in the same breath Vs are OK. Well Vs are a species of canti, just a with a different shape arm and a different cable pull.

FWIW I've seen bigger variations in the MA of cantis than other sorts of brake; the great benefit is that if you know what you are doing you can have any MA you like. However in the hands of folk that don't know the details, the result is often a brake that doesn't seem to work very well whilst seeming to be a PITA to set up.

cheers

Well they are certainly an abomination to me when I'm sat in the dark and rain outside CDG airport trying to set them up correctly. Needing to get to my accommodation and have to give up and ride with them rubbing on the rim. Give me side-pulls any day. Things on bikes, IMO, should be simple. they shouldn't need to be that complicated that you have to faff about at the side of the road. Having to mess about with spacers, cables, angles etc should not be necessary. Yes I do know how to set them up.
Nothing left to prove.

landsurfer
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 6:03pm

I love Canti's ... mechanical simplicity and good braking forces.
( Until the decent of Whinlatter Pass last week of course ).
Which is the point of the original OP.
I have just purchased another bike with cantilever brakes, another Jamis, also with Tektro Oryx brakes ...silver this time.
Don't you just love Cyclescheme .....

I've looked at various suggestions and the BBB BBS blocks seem to be well thought of at a sensible price ....but ...

They have designations ...-3, -14, -16 .... i cannot find anything on their web site as to what these designations mean ..
So ..... As before ...
Answers on a postcard .. please ...
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

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bigjim
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby bigjim » 20 Sep 2019, 7:11pm

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the simplicity thing. :)
Cantilevers
First. the cable threads through a cable hanger.
Then fasten to a yoke.
Another length of cable running through the yoke to the arms.
Depending on type you make need some cable outer on the main cable to secondry cable on yoke.
Each arm to be screwed into braze on.
Once connected to braze ons they will have to be individually balanced using tension screws.
Each pad has individual washers that have to be adjusted so pads lie correctly against the rim.
Ride the bike and then retune pad clearances and tensions in arms.
Sidepulls.
Connect cable by threading through adjuster and fasten to locking screw with pads close to rim.
Fine tune using adjuster,
Ride your bike.
Jobst Brandt wasn't a fan of Cantis.
Nothing left to prove.

robc02
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Location: Stafford

Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby robc02 » 20 Sep 2019, 7:32pm

bigjim wrote:I think Cantis are an unnecessary abomination [I await the flack]. A nuisance to keep setup and not that powerful. I realise that they are designed for wider tyres, but how wide? I have a Galaxy that I have converted from canti's to cheap un-named side-pulls with 32c tyres. Brakes very well and easy to maintain. On my old Raleigh Sprint with original side-pulls and those old style blocks, I had brakes far more powerful from the various Canti's I have used. Even the old so called suicide levers pulled the bike up very well. My original Raleigh Royal with Centrerpulls are better than my cantis.


Are you talking of single pivot sidepulls? If so I'm surprised that they are more powerful than your cantis. In my experience even with the right levers most sidepulls needed a good old heave to work well! Dual pivots are another matter - I have some Tektro 55-73mm drop ones and they are pretty good. However there isn't much else that will work with 35mm plus tyres and mudguards, hence cantis and V's.

I take your point about them being a fiddle to set up initially. I haven't had any cause to do anything radical with them afterwards, though - other than adjust for pad wear.

Brucey
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby Brucey » 20 Sep 2019, 8:28pm

bigjim wrote:Well they are certainly an abomination to me when I'm sat in the dark and rain outside CDG airport trying to set them up correctly..... Yes I do know how to set them up.


If they really had been set up properly then it ought just be a matter of hooking the cable up again. Cantis are at heart really simple brakes; for the longest time my favourite cantis didn't even have adjustable springs; they simply weren't needed. I don't think I've ever spent more than a couple of minutes setting up cantis.

Currently I have cantis on my hack bike; it lives out of doors 24-7 and the brakes have gone through about three or four sets of inserts and have not needed to be touched otherwise. With DPs I can't even go through a single set of inserts without worrying that one brake block is about to go under the rim whilst the other one is going into the tyre.... :roll:

FWIW the most common sort of brake (that isn't utter rubbish to start with) that goes in the bin at the LBS is the dual pivot sidepull; (*) whether it is a larger fraction of those out there or not I couldn't say, but they fail very often. They get damaged when the steering swings round, the springs rust up, and the most common problem is that the pivots seize up. The slightest bit of corrosion and they become impossible to disassemble or adjust. Obviously the most delicate workings are the first part to get covered in crud.... brilliant design.... just in case you have mudguards they have moved one pivot to one side so that still gets covered in crap, with predictable consequences. If you manage to dodge that then the centrebolt often doesn't want to come undone; drill required!

(*) FWIW the second most common is 'hydraulic disc caliper'. .... so much for progress.... :roll:

cheers
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landsurfer
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 9:04pm

landsurfer wrote:
They have designations ...-3, -14, -16 .... i cannot find anything on their web site as to what these designations mean ..
So ..... As before ...
Answers on a postcard .. please ...


Help ... ?
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby Brucey » 20 Sep 2019, 9:11pm

link?
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

landsurfer
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 9:25pm

It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

Brucey
Posts: 35924
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby Brucey » 20 Sep 2019, 10:16pm

are they not just product codes?

cheers
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bigjim
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby bigjim » 20 Sep 2019, 10:25pm

Brucey wrote:
bigjim wrote:Well they are certainly an abomination to me when I'm sat in the dark and rain outside CDG airport trying to set them up correctly..... Yes I do know how to set them up.


If they really had been set up properly then it ought just be a matter of hooking the cable up again. Cantis are at heart really simple brakes; for the longest time my favourite cantis didn't even have adjustable springs; they simply weren't needed. I don't think I've ever spent more than a couple of minutes setting up cantis.

Currently I have cantis on my hack bike; it lives out of doors 24-7 and the brakes have gone through about three or four sets of inserts and have not needed to be touched otherwise. With DPs I can't even go through a single set of inserts without worrying that one brake block is about to go under the rim whilst the other one is going into the tyre.... :roll:

FWIW the most common sort of brake (that isn't utter rubbish to start with) that goes in the bin at the LBS is the dual pivot sidepull; (*) whether it is a larger fraction of those out there or not I couldn't say, but they fail very often. They get damaged when the steering swings round, the springs rust up, and the most common problem is that the pivots seize up. The slightest bit of corrosion and they become impossible to disassemble or adjust. Obviously the most delicate workings are the first part to get covered in crud.... brilliant design.... just in case you have mudguards they have moved one pivot to one side so that still gets covered in crap, with predictable consequences. If you manage to dodge that then the centrebolt often doesn't want to come undone; drill required!

(*) FWIW the second most common is 'hydraulic disc caliper'. .... so much for progress.... :roll:

cheers

That's it, our experiences are different. I've never had those problems with DPs that you have encountered. Though loads with Cantis. So that's all I can go off. They don't seem to surviive airline transit very well.. Jobst Brandt says the same about cantis going under the rim and the possibility of the yoke falling onto the tyre with bad consequences if a cable fails. I find Weinmann single pivot sidepulls plenty powerful when properly set up.
Nothing left to prove.

landsurfer
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 10:44pm

Brucey wrote:are they not just product codes?

cheers


Yes .. but as the new source of all cycling mechanical knowledge whats the difference between their performance ... thats my issue ... if you can assist that would be good .. respect to the Brucey .... :)
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

Brucey
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby Brucey » 20 Sep 2019, 11:23pm

I think that others (eg R2 ) have used more different BBB brakes than I have but IIRC there are several types of compound including;

1) roadstop etc
2) techstop (which often use tristop (triple compound) technology) and
3) techstop blue HP (resistant to high temperatures, meant for racing originally)
5) techstop carbon HP (for carbon rims I think)
4) carbstop (for carbon rims)

these are available in different fitments and in various different style holders. Not sure which fitment you would need, or which compound you would be best off with, but BBS-03A are basic shimano-fit 'road' inserts and BBS-26HP are techstop blue HP inserts, again in shimano fit.

I think the idea of the blue HP compound is that it is seen as an alternative to the top Swissstop compound (BXP). How exactly it compares I don't know, but the swissstop is pretty good.

http://www.swissstop.com/media/96066/swissstop_2017_techdoc_bxp_en.pdf

cheers
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RickH
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby RickH » 21 Sep 2019, 8:37am

bigjim wrote:... the possibility of the yoke falling onto the tyre with bad consequences if a cable fails.

The early (early 90s?) mountainbike design of using a small pulley built into the underside of the stem to run the brake cable from the outer stop, also built into the underside of the stem, to the straddle cable seems designed to cause this problem! :shock:

robc02
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby robc02 » 21 Sep 2019, 9:19am

RickH wrote:
bigjim wrote:... the possibility of the yoke falling onto the tyre with bad consequences if a cable fails.

The early (early 90s?) mountainbike design of using a small pulley built into the underside of the stem to run the brake cable from the outer stop, also built into the underside of the stem, to the straddle cable seems designed to cause this problem! :shock:


According to Sheldon, the Shimano Link Wire system was designed to address this, though he does suggest that it might still be worth fitting a reflector bracket or similar under the straddle to make quite sure it can't drop onto the tyre. Of course, this is not a problem if mudguards are fitted.
https://sheldonbrown.com/canti-trad.html

Avid Shorties also come with a similar arrangement, maybe others too.

pwa
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby pwa » 21 Sep 2019, 9:35am

Brucey wrote:
pwa wrote:I have CR520s which are 720s in black. And they work at least as well as the Oryx they replaced but with nicer quality.


IIRC the difference between 520 and 720 is not the colour but that the 720 has cartridge brake blocks from new and the 520 doesn't. Both ought to be available in black or silver finish.

The 520/720 type brake has a lower MA than the Oryx style (unless the Oryx setup is especially poor), but (on any given frame) the brake is liable to feel more direct, i.e. the lever needs to be pulled less far between the brake coming on and full power. I think that some people must prefer that feel, even if the MA is lower.

cheers


Interesting. Do you think that my liking CR520s has anything to do with the fact that, with all rim brakes, I like the blocks well clear of the rim when at rest, so that when I reach for the levers I know instinctively that there is a tiny bit of "slack" to take in before block touches rim? That means that the lever has a reduced range of movement in which braking happens, from the contact point to touching the bar. It does work, and I can't actually touch the bar even if I try.

(You are right that the CR520s came with disposable blocks, which I replaced with cartridge when they needed replacing. Strangely, the originals were very good. They were quiet, they worked in the wet, and they seemed to suit my CSS rims. Better, in fact, than the expensive blue Swisstop things.)