Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

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pwa
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby pwa » 21 Sep 2019, 9:46am

bigjim wrote:I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the simplicity thing. :)
Cantilevers
First. the cable threads through a cable hanger.
Then fasten to a yoke.
Another length of cable running through the yoke to the arms.
Depending on type you make need some cable outer on the main cable to secondry cable on yoke.
Each arm to be screwed into braze on.
Once connected to braze ons they will have to be individually balanced using tension screws.
Each pad has individual washers that have to be adjusted so pads lie correctly against the rim.
Ride the bike and then retune pad clearances and tensions in arms.
Sidepulls.
Connect cable by threading through adjuster and fasten to locking screw with pads close to rim.
Fine tune using adjuster,
Ride your bike.
Jobst Brandt wasn't a fan of Cantis.


I can replace the cartridge blocks on cantis (V type) in twenty minutes with no issues, allowing for full adjustment on each one, so it isn't a big deal. But yes, you are right, it is more involved than calipers and it was a good few years before I became efficient doing it. Maintaining cantis is not easy for a novice.

Brucey
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby Brucey » 21 Sep 2019, 3:31pm

pwa wrote:…..Interesting. Do you think that my liking CR520s has anything to do with the fact that, with all rim brakes, I like the blocks well clear of the rim when at rest, so that when I reach for the levers I know instinctively that there is a tiny bit of "slack" to take in before block touches rim? That means that the lever has a reduced range of movement in which braking happens, from the contact point to touching the bar. It does work, and I can't actually touch the bar even if I try.

(You are right that the CR520s came with disposable blocks, which I replaced with cartridge when they needed replacing. Strangely, the originals were very good. They were quiet, they worked in the wet, and they seemed to suit my CSS rims. Better, in fact, than the expensive blue Swisstop things.)


Interesting comment about the way the levers are set up, It is easy enough to work out the MA of the brake and to concentrate on that. However the MA of the hand also varies, and you might well be able to squeeze the lever harder, more easily, when it is closer to the handlebars or something like that. I'd also note that with some levers the MA of the lever does change in the stroke too, so there might be a real increase in MA as well.

cheers
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bigjim
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby bigjim » 21 Sep 2019, 3:38pm

Ahh.. The MA of the hands. On the derided Weinmann levers and Sidepulls. If they are set up correctly and one brakes from the drops the brakes are exceedingly powerful IMO. But not so much from the hoods. But in days of yore I imagine most riders did brake from the drops at speed and the suicide levers adequate in town.
Nothing left to prove.

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nick12
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby nick12 » 21 Sep 2019, 4:33pm

I have canti's on my mtb touring bike which are from 1995. I got the brakes with a parkpre pro team mtb and have been using them on my main bike since then.
They are Critical racing cantilever brakes the original pads were madison aztecs and could stop you on a sixpence. I shoud try to source some of them pads again. But the brakes are my favourite of all my bikes. After 20 years of use there as good as they have always been with no play in the bushes, only the threads on the grub screw which holds the yoke cable has gone in one of them. It needs re tapping. A cable bolt is doing the job for now and works fine. I'm using fibrax pads the past year and they do the job and only £1 a pair at York rally.
My levers which are the same age are dia compe SS7.
The only thing I don't like with them or indeed any canti's is when using them in wet muddy conditions is that you know they are grinding away your rims.
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bgnukem
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby bgnukem » 23 Sep 2019, 4:23pm

Still running Cantis on my old Dawes Mean Street but I find the original spec. Deore LX low profile cantis have always been poor, even after setting the straddle cable angle to 90° and fitting better (Kool stop) pads.

The OP's brakes are high profile cantis which should be more powerful I think. Can definitely recommend Kool Stop salmon pads, just hard to find and usually expensive!

The Tektro deep drop dual pivot brakes on one of my other bikes were appalling until I swapped the original pads, which seemed to be made from very hard rubber which wore slowly but provided [ poor braking ]......
Last edited by Graham on 23 Sep 2019, 9:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: FFE . . .family-friendly edit

Brucey
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby Brucey » 23 Sep 2019, 5:07pm

bgnukem wrote:Still running Cantis on my old Dawes Mean Street but I find the original spec. Deore LX low profile cantis have always been poor, even after setting the straddle cable angle to 90° and fitting better (Kool stop) pads.


if you set the straddle to 90 degrees by the time the brake is on and the brake blocks are slightly worn, the angle is closer to 80 degrees and that means the brake MA is lower than it could be. IMHO you should be shooting for closer to 120 degrees with the brake off and between 100 and 110 degrees when the brake is on, if you want good power. With post-mount brakes you can spread the arms and this both improves the MA (because it flattens the straddle angle) as well as reduces the amount that it changes by as the brake is applied and the brake blocks wear.

Obviously if the levers or cables are the wrong type or not up to snuff then the brakes won't be very good.

The OP's brakes are high profile cantis which should be more powerful I think. Can definitely recommend Kool Stop salmon pads, just hard to find and usually expensive!


Oryx are mid-profile cantis. Again they will benefit from a flatter straddle.

The Tektro deep drop dual pivot brakes on one of my other bikes were appalling until I swapped the original pads, which seemed to be made from very hard rubber which wore slowly but provided [ poor braking ] ...


some are not very good; it is always worth trying something different.

cheers
Last edited by Graham on 23 Sep 2019, 9:41pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: FFE . . .family-friendly edit
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bgnukem
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby bgnukem » 24 Sep 2019, 4:54pm

Cheers Brucey. Will try to adjust straddle angle further. The post mount brake blocks are a PITA to set up though as everything moves at once when they are slackened off. I also still have the original non-adjustable Shimano straddle cable, one side is fixed length.

The levers are attached to Rapidfire Plus units of the same vintage as the brakes so I believe have the correct cable pull for cantis, as opposed to V-brakes (is there any difference?).

Cheers,

Ben

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby Brucey » 24 Sep 2019, 6:00pm

bgnukem wrote:Cheers Brucey. Will try to adjust straddle angle further. The post mount brake blocks are a PITA to set up though as everything moves at once when they are slackened off.


if you install a thin spring or wave washer behind the nut, you might find it easier to make the adjustment. Some shimano brakes came with such a washer installed already, but most didn't.

The levers are attached to Rapidfire Plus units of the same vintage as the brakes so I believe have the correct cable pull for cantis, as opposed to V-brakes (is there any difference?).


yes, a big difference in MA/cable pull. If you can find out the exact model number then compatibility can be checked. Some models were able to be configured for either type of brake, but most weren't.

cheers
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landsurfer
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby landsurfer » 24 Sep 2019, 6:16pm

Made up a spacer, U shaped, the same distance across the inside of the U as the outside width of the rim.
1mm thick 2024 T3 alloy.
I slackened off the pad retaining bolts, placed the U packer 10mm in from the trailing edge of the brake pad, applied the brakes, and tightened the pad bolts.
On descending the hill I live on an application of the front brake resulted in no squealing and and retardation was sufficient to stop the total mass of 120kg within 10 meters from 20mph.

Result !! :) and repeatable, and measured.

Toe-in worked,( !!! ) with the OEM pads ... I will repeat the exercise with the bbb bbs-16 pads i have purchased when they arrive.

(Assuming toe-in is the leading edge of the pads being further in towards the rim braking surface than the trailing edge ... leading edge being the most Forward point of the pad relevant to the cycle structure. )
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

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bigjim
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Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby bigjim » 24 Sep 2019, 6:40pm

The more I read of this the more I like my side pulls. I applaud your patience.
Nothing left to prove.

landsurfer
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Location: Rotherham

Re: Cantilever brakes ..... HELP !!!

Postby landsurfer » 24 Sep 2019, 6:52pm

bigjim wrote:The more I read of this the more I like my side pulls. I applaud your patience.


It gets worse ... my Jamis frame has all the drillings in place for side pull brakes .... Oh wait .!.... I've got some somewhere ... :)
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.