chain link pin

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nicmarsh
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chain link pin

Postby nicmarsh » 7 Oct 2019, 2:36pm

I have a new Chainset - Tiagra 4700; Shimano recommend chain HG54. I have that chain as it was sent as part of the groupset deal. It surprised me that I don't need to shorten the chain (I estimate is 112 links) - using biggest sprocket / large chainwheel method to measure length. But the question is -

Is the pin that the chain comes with, meant to be used as the connecting pin or should I be buying a connecting pin separately? See photo - its a darker and very different looking pin - Or are there alternatives? On 11 speed I am using quick links but I am not sure there available for this chain??
Image Attachments
IMG_5132.jpg
HG54

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horizon
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Re: chain link pin

Postby horizon » 7 Oct 2019, 2:41pm

Shimano AIUI have a different system and you must use the right pin (and get a spare) AND USE THE RIGHT END! And they might have quick link these days. Others will be along soon to confirm. I never buy Shimano chains as a result.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

Brucey
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Re: chain link pin

Postby Brucey » 7 Oct 2019, 3:11pm

that appears to be an 'OEM' chain that is meant to be fitted in a bike factory, rather than one that is meant for retail sale to ordinary punters.

OEM chains are frequently slightly different from retail chains, and in this case it is not just the packaging. Differences include

- the chain may already be cut to length (to suit a particular set of gears and chainstay length, maybe not yours)
- the pin that is part-way out of the chain is a type of special joining pin

The joining pin is obviously different from the other pins in the chain; in this case it is a different colour and the swaging on the end is different too. It usually (*) functions much like the 'special joining pin' that comes with retail chains, except that there is no guide pin extension that needs to be broken off after the pin is fitted.

This type of chain can be fitted very swiftly indeed, but not with most standard chain tools. The lack of a guide pin extension means that if the pin is to enter the far side plate cleanly, it must be driven exactly squarely, and most ordinary chain tools are just not good enough to do this, not reliably anyway.

[(*) NB There is an outside chance that the pin is built like an 11s campagnolo one, i.e. it needs to have the ends swaged in a particular way after installation, but if so it'll be the first shimano chain I've seen like this.]

If the connecting pin doesn't work for some reason, a KMC quicklink will fit this chain.

hth

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

nicmarsh
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Re: chain link pin

Postby nicmarsh » 7 Oct 2019, 3:25pm

thanks Brucey, that indeed is helpful and informative!

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horizon
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Re: chain link pin

Postby horizon » 7 Oct 2019, 7:20pm

nicmarsh wrote:thanks Brucey, that indeed is helpful and informative!


And mine wasn't? :wink:
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

Brucey
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Re: chain link pin

Postby Brucey » 7 Oct 2019, 8:48pm

there's more; I dunno what you get in retail packaging with shimano 10s chains these days but their website does not divulge any useful information about 10s chains at all easily. With an OEM chain you probably get nothing.

Image
retail version of CN-HG54 with joining pin

If you have to shorten a 'retail' chain then you should always shorten from the end with the inner link; this leaves the end with an outer link never having seen a rivet before, and the most secure joint once the pin is fitted.

Image
OEM version of CN-HG54

Now this chain (like many shimano 10s chains) is directional. In addition shimano have a recommendation about the orientation of the link with the joining pin. The two things to remember are

1) that, on the bike, the writing on the chain faces rightwards and
2) in use, the outer side plate with the joining pin is the 'leading' end of the chain.

So with reference to the OEM chain above, that end of the chain should be draped over the chainring, and the other end (terminating in an inner link) should be fed through the FD, over the sprocket and through the RD. This ensures that when you join the ends on the lower chain run, you have the inner link in your left hand, and the outer link (with the joining pin) in your right hand. In use the 'leading' end of the chain is the correct one.

KMC chains are a lot easier than this.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

nicmarsh
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Re: chain link pin

Postby nicmarsh » 7 Oct 2019, 10:02pm

increasingly helpful - especially as I do appear to have the OEM version at the correct length. In future it would be worth considering switching to KMC for simplicity as much as anything else?

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horizon
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Re: chain link pin

Postby horizon » 7 Oct 2019, 10:34pm

Brucey wrote:
KMC chains are a lot easier than this.



OP wrote: In future it would be worth considering switching to KMC for simplicity as much as anything else?


horizon wrote: I never buy Shimano chains as a result.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

keyboardmonkey
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Re: chain link pin

Postby keyboardmonkey » 7 Oct 2019, 10:40pm

I had thought about starting my own thread about a similar matter, but if the OP will forgive me...

Brucey wrote:... This type of chain can be fitted very swiftly indeed, but not with most standard chain tools. The lack of a guide pin extension means that if the pin is to enter the far side plate cleanly, it must be driven exactly squarely, and most ordinary chain tools are just not good enough to do this, not reliably anyway.


A fellow forumite sent me a couple of UG-51 chains that have what I thought Shimano refers to as an “ordinary connection pin”. I have a decent 6- to 11-speed Shimano chain tool so used it to join the chain. It was tougher than I expected. Is the Shimano tool not up to snuff for this task - or was I perhaps a bit ham-fisted at my first attempt?

A7B12FC7-5B57-463E-B764-7DD1A8E69B66.jpeg

I ask because more recently I used the tool (TL-CN34) to join an Ultegra 6600 chain. By comparison it was a doddle. Hmm.

Incidentally, I used the technique recommended by Park Tool, which is to drive the pin through from the non-drive side so that the broken off end of the pin points outward away from the sprockets.

Brucey wrote:... I dunno what you get in retail packaging with shimano 10s chains these days but their website does not divulge any useful information about 10s chains at all easily. With an OEM chain you probably get nothing....

Re the “reinforced connecting pins”? IME there can be one or two included with the chain. I’ve just set them aside until I fancied using one the other day.
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horizon
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Re: chain link pin

Postby horizon » 7 Oct 2019, 10:56pm

This is from Sheldon (actually John Allen):

Improved sprocket design, such as Shimano's "Hyperglide", have made it possible to shift under full power, which is very stressful to chains. (Older derailer systems with plain sprockets required the rider to ease up on the pedals while shifting.) To withstand these high stresses, the link pins of modern chains are tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new link pins are difficult to remove and reinstall without damaging either the link pin or the side plate. The thinner side plates of 9- and higher-speed chains worsen this problem. Using a master link, or using a cassette with 8 speeds or fewer, with a chain made for the same number of sprockets, avoids the problem -- John Allen.


I've dived into this thread (sorry OP :) ) because of recent problems with breaking a chain (purposely) and realising that things are moving rapidly, for me, in the wrong direction. I had already gone out of my way to avoid Shimano chains (love all their other stuff) but even KMC can present problems. The OP has re-ignited this for me (thank you nicmarsh - I did try to help but it was really me just anguishing over this issue).

I think why it's a big issue for me is that chain breakage is a sort of in the dark, in the rain, in the middle of nowhere nightmare that a well-prepared cyclist tries to anticipate (a chain tool in the saddle bag toolkit is usually recommended) but I just see that as getting harder to do. This is a down-the-line problem that doesn't AFAICS get flagged up in discussions about 11 speed and the like.
The experience of travel is something that you have to pay for but can never buy. Ho Ri Zon Chinese philosopher

Brucey
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Re: chain link pin

Postby Brucey » 7 Oct 2019, 11:35pm

keyboardmonkey wrote:I had thought about starting my own thread about a similar matter, but if the OP will forgive me....


Re 'UG51 chains'

Image

OEM versions of this chain have a built-in joining pin as shown above but some (maybe all current) retail chains of this type have a quicklink.

Image

Joining OEM type 8s chains is comparably awkward to joining 10s ones. In fact it is arguably more difficult, because 8s chains often have more cambered outer side plates which do not want to sit properly in a typical chain tool, making it nearly impossible to drive the connecting pin squarely.

Doing as park tool suggest with an OEM directional 10s chain is a daft idea; it results in the chain being 'the wrong way round'. In other chains it may possibly result in the chain failing more easily; the loadings are not the same on both sides of the chain, and nor is the pushout force of the 'special pin' in both side plates.

Re chain repair in general; ever since 'sedisport' (and sun tour 'ultra') chain came along, chain pin pushout forces have been increased (vs older full-bushing type chains). All these chains share some common features

- pushing the pins out of the chain is more difficult
- pushing the pins out of the chain damages both the pin and the sideplate
- rejoining a chain with (the same pin) results in a weakened connection
- the harder to push a pin out, the greater the difficulty in reinstating it, and (relatively speaking) the greater the amount of weakening in the chain there is

The difference between (say) 8s chain and 10s (or higher) chain is simply the extent of these effects, rather than their existence per se. In almost any chain the heirarchy of joint strengths is (from best to worst)

a) an original (factory made) chain link
b) a joint that is made 100% correctly (in every respect) using the correct special pin
c) a quicklink
d) an average joint made with a special pin
e) a bad joint made with a special pin
f) a joint made by reinstating a pin that was pushed out of the chain.

The use of bullseye riveting (some 9s and all 10s or higher chains) is a step change in pin pushout force. It is also absolutely necessary if you want to be able to use these chains in the way intended.

The 'repair on a dark night' eventuality merely requires that you are able to fit a quicklink (which you should carry at all times if you are worried about chain breakage). Unless there is a good reason for the chain to break where it did, then I would suggest that the chain is condemned and replaced as soon as possible; (it may be faulty or otherwise unreliable) so any repair is only get-you-home measure.

Even the most rubbish chain tool will (by hook or by crook) usually push out a single pin in a chain, allowing a QL to be fitted. If necessary the side plate can simply be flexed back and forth until the joint fails. There are lots of ways of getting a chain apart; if you are concerned about being able to do this, practice on spare links or a scrap chain of the same type.


cheers
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keyboardmonkey
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Re: chain link pin

Postby keyboardmonkey » 8 Oct 2019, 1:33pm

Brucey wrote:
keyboardmonkey wrote:I had thought about starting my own thread about a similar matter, but if the OP will forgive me....


Re 'UG51 chains'

...

Joining OEM type 8s chains is comparably awkward to joining 10s ones. In fact it is arguably more difficult, because 8s chains often have more cambered outer side plates which do not want to sit properly in a typical chain tool, making it nearly impossible to drive the connecting pin squarely. ....


Thanks, as always, for the comprehensive and lengthy reply. Well, at least I know it was my decision making rather than hamfistedness that made it a tough job to fit the UG51 chain :)

Brucey wrote:
Doing as park tool suggest with an OEM directional 10s chain is a daft idea; it results in the chain being 'the wrong way round'. In other chains it may possibly result in the chain failing more easily; the loadings are not the same on both sides of the chain, and nor is the pushout force of the 'special pin' in both side plates.

....


I would have thought that a directional chain can be positioned in readiness to be fitted and then the "special connection pin" still inserted from the non-drive side. In any case, that wasn't a concern for me as I deliberately used the non-directional Ultegra 6600 chain, which Shimano recommends for my 5703 chainset. I've fitted the pin as Park Tool's suggestion now, so I'll just have to see how things go.

Brucey wrote:
Re chain repair in general; ever since 'sedisport' (and sun tour 'ultra') chain came along, chain pin pushout forces have been increased (vs older full-bushing type chains). All these chains share some common features

- pushing the pins out of the chain is more difficult
- pushing the pins out of the chain damages both the pin and the sideplate
- rejoining a chain with (the same pin) results in a weakened connection
- the harder to push a pin out, the greater the difficulty in reinstating it, and (relatively speaking) the greater the amount of weakening in the chain there is

The difference between (say) 8s chain and 10s (or higher) chain is simply the extent of these effects, rather than their existence per se. In almost any chain the heirarchy of joint strengths is (from best to worst)

a) an original (factory made) chain link
b) a joint that is made 100% correctly (in every respect) using the correct special pin
c) a quicklink
d) an average joint made with a special pin
e) a bad joint made with a special pin
f) a joint made by reinstating a pin that was pushed out of the chain.

....


Well, hopefully I've managed to slide in to b) notwithstanding the pin being the wrong way round :(

Brucey wrote:
The use of bullseye riveting (some 9s and all 10s or higher chains) is a step change in pin pushout force. It is also absolutely necessary if you want to be able to use these chains in the way intended.

The 'repair on a dark night' eventuality merely requires that you are able to fit a quicklink (which you should carry at all times if you are worried about chain breakage). Unless there is a good reason for the chain to break where it did, then I would suggest that the chain is condemned and replaced as soon as possible; (it may be faulty or otherwise unreliable) so any repair is only get-you-home measure.

Even the most rubbish chain tool will (by hook or by crook) usually push out a single pin in a chain, allowing a QL to be fitted. If necessary the side plate can simply be flexed back and forth until the joint fails. There are lots of ways of getting a chain apart; if you are concerned about being able to do this, practice on spare links or a scrap chain of the same type.

cheers


I've had a couple of Cyclo chain tools, both of which have served me well until this year pushing pins out. I had no bother splitting a chain with either of them, but fancied a bit of an upgrade when a shelf on one of them started to look a little tired - and later broke.

Cyclo and Shimano chain tools.JPG
Cyclo and Shimano chain tools


As I've only bothered to split chains on my modern(ish) 9- and 10-speed chains - rather than rejoin them - then fit a KMC or SRAM quick link, I considered buying a KMC chain de-riveter as my upgrade. But then I fancied joining the chain with Shimano's special pin. I've also decided to leave the chain on and clean it in situ. I'll clean it when I can, but when the chain is worn it will get binned.

I carry the other Cyclo chain tool in my underseat pack as well as the appropriate (KMC) quick link (and tyre boot and replacement derailleur hanger). I'm now thinking of the quick link as a road side repair rather than an essential part of my drive train.

Cleaning Bike on a Workstand.JPG
My basic maintenance involves popping the wheels out to properly clean out my rim brake pads and - maybe next time - giving the chain a clean in situ...


Chain Cleaning.JPG
The chain has had one outing since I fitted it, so this stuff won't actually be need for a while...


Pro Chain Keeper.JPG
Even with the chain removed by using a quick link it still requires the wheel off to do a decent drive train clean IMHO, so that's what I'll do.

JohnW
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Re: chain link pin

Postby JohnW » 8 Oct 2019, 2:06pm

horizon wrote:
Brucey wrote:
KMC chains are a lot easier than this.



OP wrote: In future it would be worth considering switching to KMC for simplicity as much as anything else?


horizon wrote: I never buy Shimano chains as a result.


From my own experience I go along with all that.
My sentiments entirely.

Brucey
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Re: chain link pin

Postby Brucey » 8 Oct 2019, 4:02pm

keyboardmonkey wrote:
Brucey wrote:
Doing as park tool suggest with an OEM directional 10s chain is a daft idea; it results in the chain being 'the wrong way round'. In other chains it may possibly result in the chain failing more easily; the loadings are not the same on both sides of the chain, and nor is the pushout force of the 'special pin' in both side plates.

....


I would have thought that a directional chain can be positioned in readiness to be fitted and then the "special connection pin" still inserted from the non-drive side....

Indeed it can be; my comment re directionality was primarily in reference to OEM type chains, which already have the joining pin installed in the RH side of the chain.

However the resultant joint is different if you install the special joining pin from different sides; as I mentioned earlier the loads on the chain are not exactly the same each side, and it may be that this is significant. Specifically if the joining pin is inserted from the right side, the pin pushout force (link strength) is likely to be higher trying to push the pin rightwards than leftwards.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

keyboardmonkey
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Re: chain link pin

Postby keyboardmonkey » 8 Oct 2019, 5:30pm

Cheers, Brucey. I’ll keep an eye on the connecting pin. I watched a Park Tool video on the topic, but here is a screenshot of the argument that convinced me to use this method.

chain pin burr.jpg