Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

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TheLastMan
Posts: 18
Joined: 21 Oct 2019, 8:56am
Location: Hounslow

Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by TheLastMan »

Hi guys and gals, I bought a bike with Shimano Sora gears and excellent cable operated hydraulic brakes (TRP Hy/Rd). I am thinking of upgrading to the 105 7000, but don't want or need to upgrade the brakes. The Hy/Rd brakes are supposed to work with any cable operated levers.

So, which bits do I need to change? Presumably I need the, cassette and front and rear derailleurs, but do I need to change the chainset (crank/sprocket or chain) and levers?

Considering the massive discounts available online for the entire groupset, is it worth buying the separate items?

Thanks for any help.
Brucey
Posts: 44521
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by Brucey »

which sora do you have? The reason for asking is that the lever pull ratio has been changed in recent years to New Super SLR (NSSLR). If you already have NSSLR levers then R7000 levers will provide similar braking, but if not the brakes will still work OK, just with more effort at the lever required (than you are used to) for any given retardation.

The model of sora also has an impact on what other bits you need to change.

One thing you perhaps have not allowed for is that most 'road' 11s cassettes don't fit 8/9/10s hubs. A few do, but they are the exception, and there is little or no choice in ratios.

'No choice in ratios' is a little ironic, considering that this is the main 'benefit' of changing to 11s.

Ask yourself what you will gain by changing to 11s; two extra sprockets, right? Will you actually use them? Is the added cost of the parts, shorter life (probably) of the consumables going to be worthwhile for the use you will get out of the extra sprockets?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TheLastMan
Posts: 18
Joined: 21 Oct 2019, 8:56am
Location: Hounslow

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by TheLastMan »

All very good questions! Perhaps I should concentrate on my fitness and weight before I start worrying too much about the kit...
I am a commuter (15 km each way, 3-4 days a week) so the parts need to stand up to lots of use.

Question prompted by a go on a friends Specialized with 105 gears, two sprockets on the crank, and found it easier to stick with one front crank sprocket. I find myself shifting the front derailleur up and down a bit more than I would like on the Sora. Also the gear shift was a bit slicker.

These are no biggies, so I am still pondering whether it is worth it. The main question is whether the cost of the individual parts is likely to be higher than buying the whole groupset.

Anyway, to answer your technical questions:
Currently a Shimano Sora 3000 groupset, which I think is the latest. Double 50-34 crank.

Thanks for the warning over hubs! Had no idea about that, assumed it would be a standard fitting. I will have to ask the manufacturer (Whyte).
Brucey
Posts: 44521
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by Brucey »

Sora R3000 is 9s; what exact cassette do you have fitted? It might be that you just need a different cassette on it which has ratios that you are more likely to use.

9s consumables (cassette and chain) are usually quite a bit less expensive than 11s ones, and might be expected to last a bit longer. For commuting, unless your route is very hilly, I'd suggest that the best solution is often 8s or 7s, (with well chosen ratios) because the system is less finicky and consumables are even cheaper. Quite a lot of riders just treat 8s chains as throwaway items, and don't even bother cleaning them.

The hubs you have will be 'standard' but the question is 'which standard?'...

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Spinners
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Joined: 6 Dec 2008, 6:58pm
Location: Port Talbot

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by Spinners »

New Sora (3000) is really good kit - I have it on one of my bikes and might move it onto another frameset soon. I just wish Shimano would go the extra mile and give it an aluminium inner ring and, perhaps, a 52/36 option. For a commuter machine, I'd stick with it.
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Jamesh
Posts: 2963
Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by Jamesh »

I would go for a 11-34/-36t cassette and change your rear mech if it's a short cage one.

A tiagra or old 105 would suit as would a MTB deore xt m750 one.

Also an alivio m4000 Would suit too.

Cheers James
TheLastMan
Posts: 18
Joined: 21 Oct 2019, 8:56am
Location: Hounslow

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by TheLastMan »

Quite a flat route - Richmond to central London (Soho). Some circuits of Richmond Park or Hampton Court / Bushey Park on the weekend with occasional longer trips into Surrey countryside in the summer. About 130-150km most weeks in total during the summer, less in winter.

The commute is a mixture of long flat uninterrupted stretches (south of the Thames, Hyde Park) and traffic lights / pedestrian crossings (Hammersmith to Kensington, Mayfair) involving lots of stops and starts. So the gears tend to get used more like you would with a car, down as you approach the lights, up during the getaway - rather than hilly vs flat. I am in awe of my friends who commute on bikes with a single fixed gear!

Bought this bike, Whyte Dorset 2018, in Jan '18 to replace a Whyte Shoreditch hybrid. The Shoreditch was a nice bike but I got to dislike the upright stance and using flat bars gave me tennis elbow which is apparently quite common, particularly for those my age (60) and older. I also found the single cassette with 9 gears far too widely spaced. In a lot of situations I found the gear either too high or too low - and the highest gear was generally lower than I would like on the weekend trips.

The Whyte Dorset was exactly what I needed in most respects, and a great bike generally. The gearing suits me most of the time so perhaps I should just be less fussy!

Thanks for the advice - I will probably stick with it until the cassette is worn and needs replacing, and then consider different ratios.
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by thelawnet »

Essentially most money in bike upgrades buys *less* weight and relatively little else.

There is a bit of an illusion that a sportive-type bike (one of riding without load), which tends to be 9kg or less, has more to gain from losing weight than say a commuting bike, with a rack, etc., which might be 13kg.

The illusion is that even though 0.5kg is a bigger % off 9kg than 13kg, you must first add your own weight before calculating anything.

So if you weigh 80kg, 0.5kg is 0.6%. Your maximum speed gain from weight alone can never reach that number, as you still face other resistive forces. Uphill, and up hill alone you might save 2/3 of that number, say 0.4%.

If you time yourself from day to day you are likely to get differences of 5-10% just from having eaten better, got a proper night's sleep, etc.

https://whyte.bike/products/dorset says 10.5kg

Unfortunately they don't provide much detail beyond that as to how heavy the frame is.

Some points here:

It's an Octalink chainset, which is essentially 'cheaper than Sora'. This isn't to mean 'worse' but rather it's an older bottom bracket standard and it's around 100g heavier than an actual Sora chainset. A 105 chainset would be another 250g lighter again

Which is quite a lot in bicycle terms but not really meaningful here, and it won't work any better.

If/when you wear out the chainrings on your current chainset I'd imagine you could find a better one not made by Shimano to replace it.

Other than that you get another two gears by upgrading, which isn't meaningful in any real sense, chain will be maybe 30-40 grams lighter, cassette potentially 50 grams, shifters 20 grams, maybe 50 grams off the rederailleur, 20 grams off the front.

So essentially you get 170 grams less weight off the drivetrain and a significantly lighter chainset, but that doesn't need an upgrade to 11 speed.

A more expensive racing-type bicyle is likely to have various other bits and pieces:

* carbon seatpost
* carbon saddle
* full carbon fork
* lighter alloy frame, or a carbon frame
* lighter wheels

Some of these will save weight, some give a better ride, and some both, but the point is that it is not 'only the groupset'.

Your bike looks well-suited to its task, just get a rack and panniers. As you mention London, I would imagine you'd want to leave it places and not have it get stolen, so flashy kit is to be avoided really.

Unless the Whyte Shoreditch changed, it looks to have a 44 x 11-42 10-speed cassette. 44 x 11 is a big gear, worth 22.5mph at 70rpm. My median cadence is 70rpm, which people here tell me is low. I go up to about 100 rpm, which at that gear is 32mph.

If you are still pedalling at 32mph, then you are doing very well..... More likely however it would be beneficial to push an easier gear more quickly, and for downhill then gravity is your friend really, not your pedals.

A cycle computer might be a useful fitment in that (if you get one with a cadence sensor), you can see your speed and cadence, and experiment with this a bit.
TheLastMan
Posts: 18
Joined: 21 Oct 2019, 8:56am
Location: Hounslow

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by TheLastMan »

Unless the Whyte Shoreditch changed, it looks to have a 44 x 11-42 10-speed cassette. 44 x 11 is a big gear, worth 22.5mph at 70rpm. My median cadence is 70rpm, which people here tell me is low. I go up to about 100 rpm, which at that gear is 32mph

True, the top gear was high - too high relative to the next one down. My beef with the Shoreditch gearing was that the upper gears, 6-10, were too widely spaced. 6 to 7 was a big jump - I would have stuck with 7 for a lot of the journey if it had been a bit lower. I would use 10 only for downhill, given the wind resistance of the upright stance, but an even higher gear would have been better for that purpose. I generally cycle with a high cadence, 70-80, so prefer lower gears most of the time.

The Sora higher gears have closer ratios, that suits me fine. My complaint is clearly a niggle and I should realise that nothing is perfect!

Re weight - agree it is not really an issue - and not what I am concerned about. It was more the usability of the gears, rather than their weight.
Given that at 80 Kg and 5'7" I am probably 10 Kg overweight, fewer bacon sarnies would be a better (and cheaper) upgrade!

I prefer a backpack rather than rack and panniers. The office has purpose built indoor bike racks, so security not really an issue at the work end. My shed at home is far less secure!
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by thelawnet »

TheLastMan wrote:
Unless the Whyte Shoreditch changed, it looks to have a 44 x 11-42 10-speed cassette. 44 x 11 is a big gear, worth 22.5mph at 70rpm. My median cadence is 70rpm, which people here tell me is low. I go up to about 100 rpm, which at that gear is 32mph

True, the top gear was high - too high relative to the next one down. My beef with the Shoreditch gearing was that the upper gears, 6-10, were too widely spaced. 6 to 7 was a big jump - I would have stuck with 7 for a lot of the journey if it had been a bit lower. I would use 10 only for downhill, given the wind resistance of the upright stance, but an even higher gear would have been better for that purpose. I generally cycle with a high cadence, 70-80, so prefer lower gears most of the time.

The Sora higher gears have closer ratios, that suits me fine. My complaint is clearly a niggle and I should realise that nothing is perfect!

Re weight - agree it is not really an issue - and not what I am concerned about. It was more the usability of the gears, rather than their weight.
Given that at 80 Kg and 5'7" I am probably 10 Kg overweight, fewer bacon sarnies would be a better (and cheaper) upgrade!

I prefer a backpack rather than rack and panniers. The office has purpose built indoor bike racks, so security not really an issue at the work end. My shed at home is far less secure!


In cycling terms ideal weight for a competitive cyclist at 5'7" is closer to 60kg than 70kg.

Which of course is unnecessary for those of us not trying to win races. But it does show how misplaced a lot of bike purchasing decisions are....

The cassette on your Shoreditch I think was 11, 13, 15, 18, 21, 24, 28, 32, 37, 42, which has particularly big gaps between 13 and 11 (18%), 18 and 15 (20%), but 21 to 18 is not great either (17%)

Your current effort has 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32T, which with a 50/34 and ignoring the 50/11 as overkill, has a range of 15% gaps or less between 13 and 21.

An alternative would be something like a 50-39-30 triple, with a 12-27 9-speed cassette. This is much smoother, with 12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27 cogs, and the same bottom end as your current 50/34 double with 11-32.
NetworkMan
Posts: 727
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 11:13am
Location: South Devon

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by NetworkMan »

thelawnet wrote:
The cassette on your Shoreditch I think was 11, 13, 15, 18, 21, 24, 28, 32, 37, 42, which has particularly big gaps between 13 and 11 (18%), 18 and 15 (20%), but 21 to 18 is not great either (17%)

Your current effort has 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32T, which with a 50/34 and ignoring the 50/11 as overkill, has a range of 15% gaps or less between 13 and 21.

An alternative would be something like a 50-39-30 triple, with a 12-27 9-speed cassette. This is much smoother, with 12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27 cogs, and the same bottom end as your current 50/34 double with 11-32.

I have one of these 11-32 cassettes and it's pretty good if you treat it as a 13-32 8 speed! I have also just bought a 12-27 9 speed Ultegra since being fussy I wanted a 9 speed cassette with 9 usable speeds and it is noticeably closer spaced. However, the main problem the OP has is almost certainly the compact double chainset and a triple like the common 50-39-30 would probably help (I have 48-38-38 which is similar) and is still available as a Sora I think but wouldn't there be a need for a triple SIS shifter?
TheLastMan
Posts: 18
Joined: 21 Oct 2019, 8:56am
Location: Hounslow

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by TheLastMan »

In cycling terms ideal weight for a competitive cyclist at 5'7" is closer to 60kg than 70kg.

When I say "overweight" I mean that using BMI, anything over 70 kg is overweight at 5'7". As an adult, I have NEVER been anything close to 60 Kg! The lightest I have ever been was when doing heavy manual work on a farm at 18 when I dropped from 72-65 Kg in 4 months (converting from stones and pounds). I am far from a typical cyclist's build (short and wide) and would never dream of doing anything competitive. I cycle for fun, exercise and just to get out in the fresh air (if you can call it that in London). A bit late anyway at my ripe olde age. My other sport is dinghy sailing (where I am competitive) and 70 Kg is about ideal for my Laser, so that is my target weight. My usual excuse is I'm not heavy for my height, just short for my weight :wink:

Thanks for the info on gears, very useful. That seems to bear out my experience. To be honest the Sora setup is OK, there are enough gears and the ratios feel closer than the Shoreditch. I think the advice here has convinced me that it ain't broke, so I shouldn't fix it. I have friends doing the same commute with one gear, so I should be able to manage with 18. I will bear all the good advice here in mind if and when the rear cassette and/or chainset wear out.
hamster
Posts: 4131
Joined: 2 Feb 2007, 12:42pm

Re: Shimano upgrade gears only - which bits?

Post by hamster »

It's nice to meet another cyclist / dinghy sailor. I'm very similar in height and build and the two sports aren't compatible in terms of body shape. I try to stay closer to 66-67kg, although 64 would be nice for cycling!
I generally ride singlespeed, the first 6 weeks are terrible, then you learn to toughen up and fitness takes a jump. I'd stick with your gears, but most of the differnece in shifting can be improved by new cable inners and outers. They get hammered by commuting and it's night and day after renewing them - I think the nice sets at £20-30 are worth every penny as they do last longer. Make sure you get stainless inners.
On the sailing side I sail a Solo, which allows a choice of masts and sails - while I'm light for the class, I race with a bendier mast and flatter sail so can depower earlier. Being light I have to work far harder than the big boys upwind, but I accelerate faster though!
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