Why the Rohloff Speedhub is (secretly) inferior

[AndyA]

I think I speak for 99.9% of cyclists when I say that I really don't care and am not at all suprised that the Rohloff is tricky to reassemble after being stripped to individual sprockets
Loan me your Alfine 11, I'd like to see how long it'd last on the back of our tandem!

[Mike_Ayling]

I think I speak for 99.9% of cyclists when I say that I really don't care and am not at all suprised that the Rohloff is tricky to reassemble after being stripped to individual sprockets
Loan me your Alfine 11, I'd like to see how long it'd last on the back of our tandem!

+1

Mike

Thorn tandem with Rohloff
Thorn Mercury with Rohloff.

[meandros]

For a hub that was never opened up in more than 10 years, trust me, the cog will not only be stuck but effectively welded shut (cog is steel, driver is aluminium, the cog is screwed in by way of pedalling, that's a recipe for disaster that became so apparent they had to put out that flimsy adapter which does not solve the problem, just puts a band aid on it).

I bought this Rohloff hub from the used parts ads; this hub had seen better days and looking by the serial number it was made somewhere in 2003. But the cog was all used up, the hub was leaking dirty black oil and I decide to try and dismantle it, clean it and all that. But it got to the stuck cog and there was just no moving that. So I saw it off and made an adapter to mount Shimano cogs. But the adapter cannot be welded to the driver on account of the driver being aluminium and the adapter being steel.
Writing to Rohloff was like a big waste of time. Their help starts with data collection and I am not up to giving them any, not even the serial number.

<SNIP>

If I were an employee of either of these companies than I'm doing a very bad job at promoting or bad mouthing one or the other. No, dear fellow cyclists, I am a mere enthusiast that took it upon himself to rid my neck of the woods free from IGH issues and have thus far a 100% track record (thank you very much ) with customers that have put thousands of miles on Alfine 11 transmissions with 250W motors and Alfine 8 with 500W motors, to mention just a couple of my "achievements" (and trying to put behind the horrors of corroded and destroyed Nexus and Alfines that have _all_ sprung back to life and are going strong though; yep, I do keep in touch with my customers, anytime they might have an issue and always provide them with all the knowledge to setup their hubs correctly). And it's not the newer series A11 that have undergone electric motor conversions either but the ole SGS700 too, a hub so "unreliable" by many tales that would be hard sprung to take such loads: but it does, surprise surprise...

And just to be clear, I am not saying either of these hubs are junk or fantastic, I am just pointing out major design compromises with each one and saying that when it comes to actual used materials and manner of assembly, the Alfine is in a different league. The type of customer that spends a clean 1000 bux for a hub is the type that will have it serviced for him/her. But the type that buys a Nexus or Alfine cannot always afford shipping it to expensive services located every other continent, instead runs the hub into the ground (and these hubs are so tough I have literally seen A8/11s with grinded down rollers that eventually _still_ worked and numerous Nexus' that were never serviced in more than a decade).

I will say this, the A11 definitely requires a more sitting down approach to pedalling, mainly in the first 6 gears but the helical design actually proves to aid for those low spin, high tork situations, at least for me, in a sense, it takes away the harshness of the pedal stroke - feels like I'm churning thru butter while going up the hill (I am using oval chainrings on all my three bikes, if that makes a difference).

[meandros]

Alfine 11s hubs which see hard service seem to have hubshells which fail near the disc mount
cheers

I have come across this issue, Brucey, as you well know, I reported it in the thread (did manage to weld it back up and that hub is operational, just for V-brake only). That was a first type A11 SGS700 (SNs starting with I and J), with the small lettering flush with the hubshell. Never came across this issue with another hub and the newer more embosed bigger lettering on the hubshell SGS700s have not yet seen any hubshell failure like that although, I mean, the design flaw is still there and easily fixable if one is to look at the A8 that has almost the whole left side steel inner-plated.

But aluminium does fatigue and it is unsurprising that both Rohloff and A11 hubshells fail (just not in the same manner - never seen a broken Nexus or Alfine flange - corroded yes ). The thing is, though, the service costs to replace that for a Rohloff would probably be just about as "cheap" as getting a new A11 hub alltogether...

[Carlton green]

I’ve been watching and skimming through this thread and find the content a bit unsettling, but perhaps that’s just me. I suspect that, if truth were told, neither hub is as good as the ‘marketing boys’ would have us believe and that both work tolerably well for large numbers of people ... particularly those who ride limited mileages. Whatever, for the money involved I expect such things to be bullet proof and to survive very high mileages.

Given that Hub Gears are more durable than derailleurs what would the experts suggest (beyond a three speed SA) are the best examples of cost effective hub gears that are available to buy now, have a good spares supply and just keep working for years on end?

[pete75]

I was thinking , not today ReichKommissar Rohloff, _not today_). So, like the free minded bloke that I am, I took it upon myself to CNC that pos driver that ReichKomissar Rohloff will not sell to those without serial numbers.

Whoever would have expected Godwin's Law to be invoked in a post about hub gears in the technical section.

[thelawnet]

Seems that used Rohloffs should come with some tin foil.

Looks like the OP has some very peculiar requirements relating to cycling in secrecy.

In this respect he might fit in well here....

[Brucey]

IME if you buy rohloff spares from a distributor you just buy them, no hassles. My understanding is that Rohloff's interest in the serial number of your hub is there for several reasons
a) to protect their customers from thieves and those who would trade in stolen hubs (probably your Rohloff is more likely to get nicked than it is to break...) and
b) to ensure that you get the correct spares which fit your hub (the hubs vary with date in a few respects)

I agree the way the sprockets are secured (new or old style) is 'unconventional' but then so is the rest of the hub. 'Low maintenance' tends to turn into 'no maintenance' in some people's hands and neglect will wreak its own brand of havoc on any bike part. If you buy a cheap used rohloff it will probably be cheap for a reason....
However seized up your sprocket was, think how much worse it would have been had the screw thread not been a six-start one. That you seem to have wrecked the driver getting the sprocket off..(.? ) is unfortunate and probably avoidable. [Tip; if you have to use heat on the parts to get them apart, provided you don't go nuts the most you will do is wreck ten quid's worth of bearings and seals.]

If you don't like the Rohloff ones it is really not very difficult engineering to use the body of an old threaded sprocket to make an adaptor so that you can use the sprockets of your choice. For example I have made 'special' 1/8" chain sprockets for rohloff using this approach. A fundamental objection to rohloff is that you are forced to use a chainline of at least 50mm; in fact it is worse than that it needs to be 51mm or slightly more with the splined adaptor. Since I hate riding with high Q value this is (in fact) my main gripe about riding with this style of hub. Other IGHs can use a chainline nearer 40mm, which (all things being equal) means a Q value 20mm smaller.

Nothing is perfect and nothing lasts for ever; when it comes to bike parts it is arguably a question of choosing your poison. I don't know how you can maintain the fiction of '100% reliablity in A11' when you have had hubshells break. It doesn't make sense. Other parts inside those hubs wear out and break with normal folk pedalling them and my experience of sending motor power through Nexus hubs (on carrier bikes) is that a large proportion of them fail in warranty because the hubs are simply not designed to take this amount of load. A weekend toy might be different. A11 shifters break too, and the Di2 arrangement is utterly unappealing to me (and everyone else too as it turned out). A11 hubs are not bad hubs but they are a long way from perfect; the main thing they have going for them is that they are cheap; the £ per ratio balance is pretty good.

Arguably the A11 hub wouldn't exist without the rohloff; rohloff proved that there was a market for a sophisticated hub gear with that many ratios.
It would be a dull old world if all bike companies and all products were comparable.

cheers

[PH]

for the money involved I expect such things to be bullet proof and to survive very high mileages.

That is the experience of all but a very small number of owners.
My first Rohloff hub is coming up to 100,000 miles over 16 years (87,000 recorded and a conservative estimate of 10,000 unrecorded). In that time I've broken two flanges (One of which may have been aggravated by changing wheel size, which isn't recommended on any hub), neither left the bike unrideable and both were replaced FOC, it's also begun leaking oil, which requires it to be sent away for a fix, though it isn't expensive. Other than that it's been faultless, simple oil change when required, cable replacement less frequently than on a derailleur, sprocket not left so long that it seizes, chain kept at a tension where it doesn't fall off, two worn out shifters, replace or reverse chainring and sprocket when required, recent conversion to splined sprocket, conversion to disc brake and that's it. A fraction of the time, effort and expense needed to keep a derailleur system working as well.
I've also had three Shimano hubs, Nexus 4, Nexus 8 and currently Alfine 8. The 4 was a bit of a pain, the Nexus 8 was was fine once I'd abandoned Shimano's idea of lubrication, and I like the Alfine 8. The comparison between any of those and the Rohloff makes no sense to me, they're different products that offer different things and you'd rightly have different expectations.
meandros seems to have a gripe with Rohloff, yet hasn't produced any real evidence, it's easy to say that X component is inferior and they might be right, so lets see the failures. Lets see some users experiences that back it up, the "myths" around it's reliability don't come from the manufacturer (Though they certainly milk it) they come from those using it. I've seen no myth busting in this thread.

[Ivor Tingting]

for the money involved I expect such things to be bullet proof and to survive very high mileages.

That is the experience of all but a very small number of owners.
My first Rohloff hub is coming up to 100,000 miles over 16 years (87,000 recorded and a conservative estimate of 10,000 unrecorded). In that time I've broken two flanges (One of which may have been aggravated by changing wheel size, which isn't recommended on any hub), neither left the bike unrideable and both were replaced FOC, it's also begun leaking oil, which requires it to be sent away for a fix, though it isn't expensive. Other than that it's been faultless, simple oil change when required, cable replacement less frequently than on a derailleur, sprocket not left so long that it seizes, chain kept at a tension where it doesn't fall off, two worn out shifters, replace or reverse chainring and sprocket when required, recent conversion to splined sprocket, conversion to disc brake and that's it. A fraction of the time, effort and expense needed to keep a derailleur system working as well.
I've also had three Shimano hubs, Nexus 4, Nexus 8 and currently Alfine 8. The 4 was a bit of a pain, the Nexus 8 was was fine once I'd abandoned Shimano's idea of lubrication, and I like the Alfine 8. The comparison between any of those and the Rohloff makes no sense to me, they're different products that offer different things and you'd rightly have different expectations.
meandros seems to have a gripe with Rohloff, yet hasn't produced any real evidence, it's easy to say that X component is inferior and they might be right, so lets see the failures. Lets see some users experiences that back it up, the "myths" around it's reliability don't come from the manufacturer (Though they certainly milk it) they come from those using it. I've seen no myth busting in this thread.

++1. I hope to have ridden 100k trouble free Rohloff miles in a few years time. Of the Alfine hubs it is my belief that the 8spd is the more robust of the two hubs more than the 11spd which I have the impression is more "fragile" but I'll leave the technical explanation to Brucey as I am only going from anecdotal accounts. A year or so ago I was considering getting an Alfine 8spd bike with belt drive just as a town bike (N+1 syndrome), but didn't in the end, not because of the Alfine hub more because of other bike features that didn't suit me and I couldn't really justify it and I didn't need it. Instead I bought another Rohloff hub built into a different size wheel which has more or less solved the issue I had sort to tackle.

Re the OP I find it bizarre he is basing his claims against Rohloff from one of their hubs circa 2003 which he bought second hand in the small ads so to me that would straight away raises questions of provenance and certainly whether it had been maintained correctly or looked after during it's life which being manufactured in 2003 has been quite long, 17 years. He does seem to have a chip on his shoulder about Rohloff. I could understand if he's actually bought one of their hubs NEW. His idea of conspiracy theories against giving information to Rohloff such as the serial number of the hub is bonkers. Ok it might have been stolen years ago, but buying second hand without first checking with Rohloff seems a bit remiss. I would have checked as both my hubs are registered with them and if my bikes or the hubs were cut out of the wheel I would inform Rohloff that they had been stolen. So obvious numbering of their hubs with a serial number clearly stamped on the hub is a GOOD thing imho. Perhaps he should dismantle a much newer hub? Was he comparing the Rohloff hub with Shimano Alfine or Nexus hubs of the same vintage i.e. 17 years old? Were they even in existence then? I don't know. My Rohloff has a splined rear sprocket. I believe Rohloff changed from a threaded screw sprocket some years ago. I don't know when perhaps some one with more knowledge and experience such as PH or Brucey will know. I am very happy with mine. I realise I am fortunate to be able to afford not one but two Rohloff hubs. However my first one I really scrimped and saved for. Not everyone is able to do this not justify the purchase. I realise we all have different budgets, commitments and priorities in our lives. But for me buying Rohloff has been money well spent for so many reasons not least the much reduced time I now have to spend maintaining my bike compared to a derailleur geared bike which was a chore. I now have much more time to ride it and doing other things which I hasten to add should be the same for other hub geared bikes as well vs derailleur transmission bikes.

[geocycle]

Provocative post meandros! 60,000km of more or less trouble free riding makes me want to politely disagree with you.


Edited to be clearer

[Ivor Tingting]

Provocative post! 60,000km of more or less trouble free riding makes me want to politely disagree with you.

Who me? I've not yet ridden 60k km of trouble free riding. If you are directing your comment to me then it's a provocative post yourself without providing anything to substantiate your disagreement. We are not mind readers.

[geocycle]

Provocative post! 60,000km of more or less trouble free riding makes me want to politely disagree with you.

Who me? I've not yet ridden 60k km of trouble free riding. If you are directing your comment to me then it's a provocative post yourself without providing anything to substantiate your disagreement. We are not mind readers.

Apologies Ivor, was referring to the OP. My experience is much the same as yours.

[rualexander]

.....The thing is, though, the service costs to replace that for a Rohloff would probably be just about as "cheap" as getting a new A11 hub alltogether...

Any Rohloff hub shell failures which I have read about have had the shells replaced free of charge.
A new Alfine 11 hub costs around £250.

[Ivor Tingting]

Provocative post! 60,000km of more or less trouble free riding makes me want to politely disagree with you.

Who me? I've not yet ridden 60k km of trouble free riding. If you are directing your comment to me then it's a provocative post yourself without providing anything to substantiate your disagreement. We are not mind readers.

Apologies Ivor, was referring to the OP. My experience is much the same as yours.

What relief! I am glad to hear that you too have enjoyed hassle free Rohloff ownership. I hope you continue to do so.