Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

[Cyril Haearn]

Plusminus, shall 'conventional' tyres eventually become obsolete?

[pq]

This is unusual, possibly unique. I disagree with Brucey...

I run 2 1/2 of my bikes tubeless. Tubeless is a faff and costs more, but there are benefits. Up to you whether the benefits outweigh the costs.

So on my road bike I run expensive 25mm tubeless tyres. They're faster and more comfortable than the tubed versions I used to have - it's like riding a nice pair of silk tubs. For me, that's the only reason, although I also get fewer punctures which is nice. Most punctures self seal without me even having to stop, and on the one occasion when it didn't seal, I just put a tube in.

On my gravel bike I run 700x45c tubeless. For that the main benefit is protection from pinch flats. It means I can run the tyres softer than I otherwise would which gives better grip and more comfort. Tubeless isn't far off universal for gravel riders.

I've done a DIY conversion on the back wheel of my fixed winter bike. It has 23mm tyres so shouldn't work well, but has been fine for the last 2 years. I did it becasue getting a puncture on the back wheel of a fixed is more of a pain. I never got around to converting the front wheel, maybe one day.

I really like them, but if you think they sound like too much trouble, you can always stick to tubes.

[ditty bopper]

"This is unusual, possibly unique. I disagree with Brucey..."

I commend you sir, your post has to be the most polite I've seen...and disagreeing with Brucey in such a manner makes it all the more unique. Tres bien!

[Brucey]

I like fast comfortable tyres too. If you look at the headline tyres on bicycle rolling resistance.com it looks like the tubeless tyres have it all sewn up; the fastest tyres tested are all tubeless, not tubed. For example the fastest tubed tyre is the GP-5000, which comes in at 10W vs the 8.3W of the GP-5000TL.

All clear then?

Er, not quite.... if you scratch the surface even slightly it isn't so clear-cut. The GP-5000 tyre was tested with a so-called 'standard tube' which weighs 100g. Talk about spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar....

here

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/schwalbe-one-tubeless-clincher

they test the same tyre with different tubes in and compare with an equivalent tubeless tyre; (ignore the tubeless results, they have improved since then, but the tube to tube comparisons are still valuable). [BTW Schwalbe have since taken away the tubed tyre option in their fastest tyres, so I no longer buy fast schwalbe tyres.... ] At 80psi it was found that you can do over 2W better than a 'standard tube' (100g) by using a lightweight latex tube. If this result is repeated with the GP5000 tyre then there is no advantage in Crr to using tubeless; latex tubes inside non-tubeless tyres might even be faster; they are certainly lighter. Even a (cheap) lightweight butyl tube is only about 0.5W slower.

So they have not done fair tests IMHO; what kind of moron spends ~£40 a tyre and then cheaps out on inner tubes?

FWIW tyres are getting better all the time; whether it is speed, comfort or puncture resistance, changing from (probably worn out) five year old tyres to new ones is likely to be better in all respects. 'Emperor's new clothes' means that whatever benefits there might be, they are likely to be both overestimated and to be attributed to something obvious like the tubelessness of a new setup.

BTW if you habitually ride in such circumstances as you might get pinch punctures then you are playing with fire; cuts through the tyre sidewall (regardless of tyre type) and/or rim damage are not far away. You would almost certainly be better off with different tyres and/or different tyre pressures.

If you think sealant is great, you can have it inside a tube if you want.

Regarding punctures I can go for a very long time and have none at all, and when I do get them, there is a significant danger of slashing the tyre badly enough that sealant won't work, at which point you would need to remove a tubeless tyre (can be a right stinker because of the awkward rim design) remove the valve stem (usually needs pliers) and then deal with the filthy stinking mess that is the sealant (assuming it hasn't already spumed out of the hole all over the bike, you and everything else nearby). This often turns an easy two minute job into a twenty minute nightmare. You can boot tubeless tyres but then you are stuck with using a tube inside a tubeless tyre, which is a heavy, draggy, pretty hopeless arrangement, about as bad as if you had two tubes in a normal tyre. [ By contrast tubed tyres that are booted can usually be used until they are worn out with little or no compromise.]

Note also that if you want to run high pressures inside your tubeless setup, you just can't; the tyres are liable to come off the rim if you try. Most tubeless rims also don't allow you to run tubed tyres at high pressure either, because the hook beads are of smaller size (if present at all) on such rims.

So no, sorry, I'm not convinced. It all whiffs badly of hype, misinformation and sheer unadulterated bullsquirt to me.

cheers

[pq]

I have read those reports, but not as thoroughly as you.... as usual.

Something that was very noticeable to me, and even more so for the people I ride with was how much faster I am with tubeless on gentle descents. On tubes, I had to pedal to keep up with people. Tubeless and they were doing the pedalling. I take your point about worn out tyres, and it's true that I didn't go tubeless till I'd worn the old ones out, but the pedally thing was happening before tubeless whether or not I was on worn out tyres, and still happens if I go out on one of my tubed bikes. The tubeless set-ups still roll faster when they're threadbare. As for tubes, I tend to buy decent (light) ones, but cheap ones sometimes find their way in. Never latex though, maybe I should have.

The puncture thing, I rarely punctured on tubes - the whole thing is a bit of a non issue for me. I didn't go tubeless to reduce punctures. The fact that they have reduced is a benefit though.

But actually, I don't care that much about any of this. My tubeless tyres feel like the silks I rode back in the 80s. They even sound a bit like them. Not scientific, maybe I'm imagining it, but they do feel great and that's why I ride them. I'm on Schwalbe Pro Ones at the moment but I'm looking forward to them wearing out so I can get the new Conti GP 5000 which look like they'll be even better.

I'm interested to know if you've ridden road tubeless. As always, your thoroughness is mighty impressive, but I wasn't truly a convert till I rode them.

Where I disagree strongly with what you've said is going off road. I remember doing a lot of mountain biking 10 years or more ago and regularly getting pinch flats when I was bashing along rocky trails. Now I'm bashing along similarly rocky trails on my tubeless gravel bike, which in many respects is similar to the mountain bike I used to ride (light, no suspension). The difference is skinner tyres on the gravel bike. So far, no punctures of any description. Yes there's the potential for sidewall damage, but so far, nothing at all. Unlike my road tubeless, I didn't read any reviews of tubeless on gravel bikes, I just asked people what they were riding and why. Always tubeless, always to reduce pinch flats. My experience so far is that they're right.

I'm pleased you think I'm polite - I'm not often accused of that. It's simply that I often read your posts and respect what you say. And that I've benefited in the past from your advice, which on every occasion has turned out to be right. I'm keeping my tubeless though....

[pq]

I forgot to mention that I've only once had to fix a tubeless flat. I put a tube in, and while it was more of a faff than doing it on a tubed tyre, it was OK. Since then I've bought a tubeless repair kit which I used for the first time a few weeks back. I was out on my fixed bike, which has a very worn tubeless tyre on the back. It punctured, but then sealed, so I didn't even get off the bike. When I got home I put a bit more air in the tyre, and it blew the sealant plug out. The repair kit has these worm type things that you poke through the tyre and cut off. So I did that and pumped the tyre up again. It held OK. People say that the repair kits are much better (ie quicker and easier) for roadside repairs than putting a tube in and I think that's right. What I'm not sure about is a catastrophic puncture after riding over, say, a broken bottle, where a tube and some sort of boot would be needed. Still here in rural France that doesn't happen. Right now I'm riding with a spare tube, but maybe I'll switch to a repair kit. Decisions...

I also forgot to comment on the pressure. As always what you say is absolutely correct, but I can't imagine a scenario where I'd want to exceed the recommended pressure. So yes, I can't run very high pressures in my tubeless tyres, but I don't want to, they ride really well as they are. I probably wouldn't put them on my tandem though.

[Brucey]

I've ridden tubeless both on and offroad. Onroad they felt OK but not noticeably better than good tyres with good tubes in would anyway. Offroad I didn't used to suffer overly with punctures of any kind and I was slower on tubeless, plus the tubeless setups I tried felt 'dead' and were heavier too, so it didn't offer me anything really.

I've been riding HPs with latex tubes in since 1980-something on my road bikes and with the right tyre they were rounder, faster and felt better than any tub I could regularly afford to buy. As it happens I did all my fastest TT times on HPs fitted with latex tubes. Modern HPs are better yet.

GP 5000TL includes a butyl rubber liner and are nice tyres. GP-5000 for tubes, fitted with a lightweight latex tube, are pretty zingy. I prefer the sound of latex tubes and in terms of how fast they are, there is stuff-all in it I reckon.

Re tubeless pressures; the pressure limits (which can be set by the rim not the tyre in many cases) can be so low that if you are carrying much of a load then (say) on 25mm tyres you may not be able to use the usual 15% drop pressure recommendations.

cheers

[MarcusT]

I converted my hard core mtb. I was getting flats on every outing with tubes, even with a sealant. Tubeless changed my world, not a single flat since then. I carry an extra tube just in case

[Brucey]

years ago one of my chums (who had been riding MTBs for only about three years or so) started to ride occasionally in a particularly bramble-infested area and of course he had more punctures than he was used to. In fact he began to be plagued with punctures (dozens I think), even when he wasn't riding there and started to think about alternatives. He soon changed to tubeless and pronounced himself well pleased with it (*).

After he had changed over I took a careful look at his old tyres and I soon found three or four thorns embedded in them, even though he hadn't been riding anywhere with brambles for weeks. So in his world 'tubeless fixed his endless puncture problem' and in my world he could have simply removed the thorns like he should have and not had the same kind of problem in the first place....

(*) which situation lasted until he had an 'incident' that coated everything in the near vicinity with sealant....

One side effect of his use of tubeless tyres was that he was suddenly reluctant to fit tyres that were best suited to the conditions when we went riding in different places/conditions. A five minute job turned into a rather messier longer job or a need for spare wheels. Swings and roundabouts, eh...?

I think I have already related another friend's experience with tubeless MTB tyres; someone else (a fashion victim?) advised them to use tubeless. Gawd know why, because the friend in question was a keen racer (needing to swap tyres quite often to suit conditions) and didn't have any kind of puncture problem to speak of to start with. I think the logic was that a puncture in a race might cost a minute or two and that was less likely with the tubeless setup. Anyway, apart from being on wrong tyres more often than normal things were OK until the day of The Big Race. Needless to say there was a puncture in the latter stages of the race, part-way round the lap, the sealant didn't work and it became necessary to fit a tube. Only the valve stem nut (which had reputedly been no more than finger tight when there was air in the tyre) was, when there was no pressure behind it, somewhat tighter; too tight for fingers, but pliers might have done the job. After several minutes of frustration (during which time they watched all their main opponents pass them) they had to walk to the pits and then packed from the race. They would have had an easy podium finish in their class (even with the puncture, had they been running tubes) and instead ended up with a DNF, and missed out on team selection to boot. So much for 'progress'.

Folk may attribute their experiences to the wrong things; in both the above situations I would have /did say that there might be a benefit in turning to tubeless under certain circumstances, but that they have to be sure that the circumstances existed in the first place and that one of the (many) wrinkles didn't catch them out in which case they might be worse off, not better off.

There's no such thing as a perfect 'one size fits all' approach but in all cases forewarned is forearmed perhaps; this way you get to at least 'choose your poison' as it were.

cheers

[MarcusT]

One side effect of his use of tubeless tyres was that he was suddenly reluctant to fit tyres that were best suited to the conditions when we went riding in different places/conditions. A five minute job turned into a rather messier longer job or a need for spare wheels. Swings and roundabouts, eh...?

cheers

I found a simple solution for this inconvenience; No, not different sets of wheels, but rather different bikes. I have a bike for almost any surface.
Too many you say?
Probably, but it keeps me busy with over hauls during the long, cold winter season.

[Brucey]

your spare wheels are attached to a spare bike, I reckon....

cheers

[nez]

Now imagine that tubeless tyres were invented first.

New, for 2019, inflatable tyre liners, easy to seat tyres at very low pressures,
no refreshing sealant every few months, no sealant, inflata-liners(tm) last
years compared to sealant. Punctured inflata-liners(tm) can be re-purposed
for many home repair tasks.
Order now and we will double your order of Inflata-liners(tm)

Brilliant

[pq]

Well I'm intruiged enough to get some latex tubes for the one bike I have which has tubes and light tyres (GP4000).

Tubeless for me hasn't been committing - I bought the wheels I wanted and they're tubeless ready, but of course I can fit normal tyres too.

I think you're absolutely right about weight. Road tubeless are not going to work on a loaded tourer, a tandem, or if the rider is very heavy. I weigh a shade under 10 stone and my road tubeless are on a very light race bike. After a bit of experimenting, I run them softer than the maximum.

Thanks for all this - very interesting stuff.

[mattsccm]

"Was considering tubeless but the OP has put me right off.

So I have to carry spare sealant, spare valves, a big pump, a spare tube in case it all goes pear-shaped, as well as the faff of setting them up tubeless in the first place and even after all that the sealant still sometimes doesn't work?"

No.
You don't carry spare valves. I don't even replace mine when I swap to a new tyre.
Sealant? You don't carry that either.
Pump? Same as normal so nothing different there.
Tube. Well you do anyway so nothing different there.

A monster tour to somewhere remote might be different but then everything would be.
Sealant works almost all of the time. Never had it fail.
Mess if you have to fit a tube in a wrecked tyre? Minimal and if you really don't like it stick the tube under a tap when you take it out.
Fuss setting up. None. A mate had a nightmare. Dimwit wasn't putting the side wall into the well of the rim and reckoned that the tyre was too tight. I did it in a few seconds. He then said it was too loose and wouldn't seal. Of course it wouldn't, he had wedged in into the well.

Tubes . Horrid. They puncture split and are a pain to carry. Often they pop the tyre off the rim with a bang leaving you on the rim. You need several sizes to fit a variety of wheels and the valves aren't always the right length.

Point is the tubeless system may not suit you. Doesn't mean that they are wrong. Just not for you.

[Brucey]

Well I'm intruiged enough to get some latex tubes for the one bike I have which has tubes and light tyres (GP4000).
.

you will see a benefit vs tubes that are heavier/butyl but GP-5000 is an improved tyre all round vs GP-4000. Roughly speaking you will get an equal improvement going from

GP-4000 with butyl tubes

to

GP-4000 with latex tubes

to

GP-5000 with latex tubes

cheers