Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

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Debs
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by Debs »

pq wrote:But actually, I don't care that much about any of this. My tubeless tyres feel like the silks I rode back in the 80s. They even sound a bit like them. Not scientific, maybe I'm imagining it, but they do feel great and that's why I ride them. I'm on Schwalbe Pro Ones at the moment but I'm looking forward to them wearing out so I can get the new Conti GP 5000 which look like they'll be even better.
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I agree and concur with your reports and opinions. I also find the sound of tubeless tyres reminiscent of the racing tubs i used back in the 90s :D

However, my recent conversion to TL tyres was incidental during a purchase of new wheels to replace an expensive pair of carbon aero wheels that are fast but lack comfort and not such a good choice of wheel in winter, so i ordered a new pair of custom built wheels with comfort - reliability - lightweight prominent in the design. The TL ready rims are Spank Industry's Flare 24 which include 'Vibrocore', a kind of closed-cell foam inner fill that claim to ...reduce transmission of harmful vibration frequencies, improving rider comfort, TBH difficult to really confirm but the displacement of the air cavity in the rim really does prevent the uninvited filling with puddle water.

The inner rim width is 24mm, very wide for a road wheel but this fits fine with the GP5000 TL tyres 700 x 32 size. The bike comfort has obviously improved immensely, floats over bumpy tarmac that used to really grate, climbing is easier, lots of traction, very confident handling when descending fast and not to mention unaffected by crosswinds. I'm sure these comfy new wheels are no slower than the fancy carbon aeros.
My decision to buy the GP5000 TL was recommondation of the wheel builder, i'm very glad i went along with it. These tyres have built in fun factor :mrgreen:

From the little i've read about GP 5000 tyres, the larger size tends to be more beneficial of tubeless but the smaller sizes more beneficial of being tubed.

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RickH
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by RickH »

In 2 years of running tubeless on one set of wheels I've had minimal problems - the only thing being faster, but not excessive, air loss compared to my tubed tyres.

I had been running exclusively Voyager Hypers but I wanted some better off road tyres (plus the option to leave some wheels with snow studs fitted in wintery weather) so I bought a second set of wheels and transferred the Hypers onto those. My bike came with WTB rimmed wheels so I went down the path of using WTB tyres (WTB Nano 40 TCS Light, that I picked up reasonably cheaply in a Planet X sale). I used an Orange Seal kit to set them up. I think my air loss was from the valves which seemed hard to get seated well on the rims (they've since changed the design). Not having to run the tubeless setup immediately allowed me to take my time with fitting in case of problems (which I didn't really have, but it was nice to know I could walk away from the setup & still have a working bike).

After 2 years, & the occasional topup of sealant, I'd had no noticeable punctures. As I was prepping the bike to fly it out to Vancouver & was going to take the off road wheels (there were plans to go and ride some mountain bike trails with one of Mrs H's cousins), I decided to take the tyres off & see what I found. I did find one thorn embedded in one tyre but otherwise there was nothing. I peeled off the rubbery stuff off the tyre & rim, redid one rim tape & fitted new valves (of the new Orange design). I probably spent half an hour working on the wheels & tyres, but that is the sum total of any tyre maintenance in 2 years, apart from sealant topups & adding air. The new setup holds the air much better - no noticeable loss of pressure over the course of 3 weeks (the longest the tyres have been left fully inflated for since fettling them (3 weeks in Canada & 3 weeks since we came back).

I know the tyre are different but, in terms of riding, the Nanos are a little better better at soaking up the rough than the Hypers. Its difficult to say which factor, if any, is more important. Tubeless v tubed? Despite being nominally the same size (40-622) on the same width rims (23mm internal), the Nanos are slightly (but measurably) bigger volume. If anything, the Nanos also have more supple sidewalls too.

I could easily be tempted to try the Hypers tubeless but that would make changing to studded tyres harder unless I got a 3rd set of wheels (W+1?).
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
Brucey
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by Brucey »

I know folk have done it but I would counsel caution if wanting to run Hypers tubeless; the reason for this is that the tyre beads are not built as stiff and as strong as they would be for a tubeless tyre.

When you mount any tyre with a tube, the tube always forces the edge of the tyre into the hook bead and this provides much of the tyre retention. However when mounted tubelessly, the tyre bead either is or isn't pushed into the rim hook depending on where the tyre seals best. If it happens to seal at the tyre lip, the tyre is well retained. However if the leak rate past the tyre lip is smaller than the leak rate past the rim lip, you end up with tyre pressure behind the tyre bead and there is no beneficial effect on tyre retention. So tubeless tyres require a much more substantial (stiff) tyre bead in order to be retained on the rim properly. With other tyres the usual retention does not apply in no tube is used. To make matters worse yet tubeless rims almost invariably have a small hook or no hook on the rim edge, so all tyres are less well retained anyway.

The bottom line is that you might be safe up to (say) 100psi with a hyper, a tube, and a hook bead rim. However with no tube and a tubeless rim , 50psi might be your lot, and even then the fitment may not be reliable.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
dim
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by dim »

Debs wrote:My decision to buy the GP5000 TL was recommondation of the wheel builder, i'm very glad i went along with it. These tyres have built in fun factor :mrgreen:

From the little i've read about GP 5000 tyres, the larger size tends to be more beneficial of tubeless but the smaller sizes more beneficial of being tubed.


Just out of interest: when you fitted the 32's did you hear it 'pop' onto the rim when you pumped them up?

I'm also using the 32's on HED Belgium Plus rims and even when I pump them up over 100psi they don't make the popping sound .... My LBS fitted them when I had the wheels built and mentioned that they did not make 'the popping' sound when they over inflated them at first to seat them ... he said it's new 'modern rims'

I've ridden 478.6km so far with them and so far so good ... they have not fallen off whilst riding :D

I have HED Belgium Plus rims on my Trek Emonda SL6 and the Conti GP5000 TL in 25mm make the popping sound as it seats on the rim

Another thing about the 32's ..... I have over 1600Km with the Conti 5000 TL (25mm wide) on my Trek Emonda SL6, and I think the 32's are a bit different, as little loose strands of rubber appear on the sidewall where the tyre meets the rim on the 25mm wide

.... many people on other forums have also commented on this .... no problem though as I just snip them off with a nailclipper .... the 32mm wide that I now have don't have this problem (yet), but on the 25mm the strands started appearing early on

Perhaps they've changed the formula of the rubber on the sidewalls now?
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RickH
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by RickH »

Brucey wrote:I know folk have done it but I would counsel caution if wanting to run Hypers tubeless; the reason for this is that the tyre beads are not built as stiff and as strong as they would be for a tubeless tyre.

When you mount any tyre with a tube, the tube always forces the edge of the tyre into the hook bead and this provides much of the tyre retention. However when mounted tubelessly, the tyre bead either is or isn't pushed into the rim hook depending on where the tyre seals best. If it happens to seal at the tyre lip, the tyre is well retained. However if the leak rate past the tyre lip is smaller than the leak rate past the rim lip, you end up with tyre pressure behind the tyre bead and there is no beneficial effect on tyre retention. So tubeless tyres require a much more substantial (stiff) tyre bead in order to be retained on the rim properly. With other tyres the usual retention does not apply in no tube is used. To make matters worse yet tubeless rims almost invariably have a small hook or no hook on the rim edge, so all tyres are less well retained anyway.

The bottom line is that you might be safe up to (say) 100psi with a hyper, a tube, and a hook bead rim. However with no tube and a tubeless rim , 50psi might be your lot, and even then the fitment may not be reliable.

cheers

The Hypers are a close fit on the rims (Hope Enduro) and "pop" into place when inflated (with tubes). They also need a definite push away from the rims when taking them off. Once pushed towards the rim well they are easy to remove & refit - they feel very similar to the WTB Nanos which are tubeless compatible

Pressure shouldn't be a problem as I generally run them at 35F /40R psi with maybe an extra 5psi if loaded.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
Debs
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by Debs »

dim wrote:Just out of interest: when you fitted the 32's did you hear it 'pop' onto the rim when you pumped them up?


My tyres were supplied & fitted by the wheel builder. I decided to leave the initial set-up to the expert who has done it countless times before, so sorry can't answer your question, but he didn't report any difficulty.

My wheel builder: https://www.ryanbuildswheels.co.uk/

(28 hole) Flare 24 Vibrocore rims: https://spank-ind.com/collections/rims


Really nice wheels & tyres but it does mean at this point of time i don't have any experience of actually fitting them, or repairing a puncture. This does concern me, especially this time of year when the roads are crappy and hands are cold. But i've been assured the Conti GP 5000 TL have excellent puncture protection reputation and are less likely to puncture than most Conti tubed tyres.

I carry a spare inner-tube/levers and a dynaplug repair tool in case a puncture is from a hole too big to seal.

Image

So far i've recorded 446 miles of trouble-free riding, a huge improvement on comfort which the Trek supplied Aeolus 3 lack, although i'd say the aero advantage is probably far better with the Aeolus if one can average 20mph or more - which i can't; more like 14 or 15 mph this time of year :lol:

The Conti recommended tyre pressure for GP5000 TL 700x32 is 65 psi - which IME feels about right, however i pump the front tyre to 60 psi.
https://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/road-and-track/clinchers/grand-prix-5000-tl

It's strange how slick the tyre tread is considering the excellent traction, must be a grippy rubber compound. I tend to ride only on tarmac roads, but it's often rough tarmac, bumpy in places, and can get muddy from farm traffic.
So far after each wash and clean the GP 5000s are still new looking perfect :D
Brucey
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by Brucey »

RickH wrote: The Hypers are a close fit on the rims (Hope Enduro) and "pop" into place when inflated (with tubes). They also need a definite push away from the rims when taking them off. Once pushed towards the rim well they are easy to remove & refit - they feel very similar to the WTB Nanos which are tubeless compatible

Pressure shouldn't be a problem as I generally run them at 35F /40R psi with maybe an extra 5psi if loaded.


be that as it may, the beads are not designed to see the loads that they will when you run them tubeless.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
dim
Posts: 348
Joined: 12 May 2019, 5:59pm

Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by dim »

Debs wrote:
dim wrote:Just out of interest: when you fitted the 32's did you hear it 'pop' onto the rim when you pumped them up?


My tyres were supplied & fitted by the wheel builder. I decided to leave the initial set-up to the expert who has done it countless times before, so sorry can't answer your question, but he didn't report any difficulty.

My wheel builder: https://www.ryanbuildswheels.co.uk/

(28 hole) Flare 24 Vibrocore rims: https://spank-ind.com/collections/rims


Really nice wheels & tyres but it does mean at this point of time i don't have any experience of actually fitting them, or repairing a puncture. This does concern me, especially this time of year when the roads are crappy and hands are cold. But i've been assured the Conti GP 5000 TL have excellent puncture protection reputation and are less likely to puncture than most Conti tubed tyres.

I carry a spare inner-tube/levers and a dynaplug repair tool in case a puncture is from a hole too big to seal.

Image

So far i've recorded 446 miles of trouble-free riding, a huge improvement on comfort which the Trek supplied Aeolus 3 lack, although i'd say the aero advantage is probably far better with the Aeolus if one can average 20mph or more - which i can't; more like 14 or 15 mph this time of year :lol:

The Conti recommended tyre pressure for GP5000 TL 700x32 is 65 psi - which IME feels about right, however i pump the front tyre to 60 psi.
https://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/road-and-track/clinchers/grand-prix-5000-tl

It's strange how slick the tyre tread is considering the excellent traction, must be a grippy rubber compound. I tend to ride only on tarmac roads, but it's often rough tarmac, bumpy in places, and can get muddy from farm traffic.
So far after each wash and clean the GP 5000s are still new looking perfect :D


very good tyre .... I used the Conti GP 5000 clincher version is 32mm prior to having my new wheelset built ....

I got over 5000Km before my fist puncture on the rear ... I never switched the tyres (front to back)

to put that in perspective, I normally switch tyres at approx 2500 Km here in cambridge (I ride through the city on my commute twice a day through broken glass/potholes etc and start getting punctures just over 2000km

I'm so confident with these, that I'm using them as my 1st set of winter tyres

on my other bike, I'm usin the 25mm version (tubeless) ... over 1600Km ... zero punctures and they look like new ... fast tyres
fatboy
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by fatboy »

I know several people who love their tubeless tyres but I'm still not convinced that they are right for me (battery lights are in the same boat as I'm never prepared enough). As a touring bike user who does road commuting I'm happy with what I use.

I love the marketing idea of inner tubes sites above!

It seems to me as another sign off my ludditeness! I'll add it to external bottom brackets and integrated headsets! I guess I'm not their target market :D
"Marriage is a wonderful invention; but then again so is the bicycle puncture repair kit." - Billy Connolly
David2504
Posts: 131
Joined: 11 Mar 2021, 5:29pm

Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by David2504 »

A couple of years past, any updated thoughts on tubeless tyres? They seem to becoming the standard on lightweight road bikes, have some of the early niggles been ironed out?
mattsccm
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by mattsccm »

Much the same. If you like them, you love them. Faultless for me. If not they are a pain. More choice possibly and definitely more wheels/rims plus a greater number of bikes built for bigger tyres.
gxaustin
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Joined: 23 Sep 2015, 12:07pm

Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by gxaustin »

Tubeless tyres seem to be a 'Marmite' item. People either love them (like me and 4 or 5 friends) or have loads of trouble.
I don't carry any spares bits and wouldn't be able to remount the tyre even if I could remove it. It took me with a tyre jack and my wife with levers to get the tyres on (Conti 5000 TL). However, they did seat very easily and no punctures for the 2,000ish miles since I fitted them. When touring I shall carry a clincher and 2 tubes and just accept I wont be able to get a tube in the tubeless on my own - but that's only because I'll be in Northumberland/Scottish boarders where bike shops may be scarce.
geocycle
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by geocycle »

Very mixed views here. I have Schwalbe pro ones 28 mm which I can run at 60 psi. The ride quality is excellent. But, they leak sealant through the sidewalls which is disconcerting. I then got a puncture which wouldn’t seal and I couldn’t fix it with a worm. It retained about 30 psi and I limped home stopping several times to reinflate. I decide to replace it and had a nightmare getting the new tyre to seat. I used every internet hack and a booster pump without success. In the end I put a tube in for a few days and finally it popped on. So, I think I’m heading back to tubes next time.
mattsccm
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Re: Tubeless tyres .... What I've learned so far

Post by mattsccm »

Got the same Pro ones. Went on with a single lever and seated with a track pump. No leaks at all. No idea if they have punctured.
Goes to show that there are many variables to consider.
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