Wheels - number of spokes

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21pavone
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby 21pavone » 16 Dec 2019, 6:11pm

Thanks for the further replies.

Funny how topics morph to become different from when they started out. My query was about strength when carrying luggage, not about the (hardly noticeable) weight penalty of an extra 4/8/12 spokes - delete as applicable - in particular whether the current 28 spoke wheels on my new steed would stand the extra weight of carrier, panniers and gubbins contained therein.

As well as those wheels I’ve 3 pair of 20f/24r wheels (and a pair of 36s and a pair of 32s, both sadly not for disc brakes which is what’s needed) so am versed in the lightness of wheels with fewer spokes. Nevertheless, I will be getting another pair of wheels with more spokes and more suited to touring with panniers. My only problem is getting yet another set past my better half.

I suppose I could’ve gone for a bike more suited to touring but that’s another matter...

David9694
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby David9694 » 16 Dec 2019, 6:53pm

I’ve broken a spoke a couple of times on 32h rear wheels riding unladen. on the one hand the breakage wasn’t an emergency show stopper, but on the other, you’re almost certainly going to have to remove your cassette, so even if you carry the spare spokes and cassette tool, it’s a still a spanner bigger than on your typical multi tool or a vice you’re going to need.

De Sisti
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby De Sisti » 16 Dec 2019, 7:19pm

David9694 wrote:I’ve broken a spoke a couple of times on 32h rear wheels riding unladen. on the one hand the breakage wasn’t an emergency show stopper, but on the other, you’re almost certainly going to have to remove your cassette, so even if you carry the spare spokes and cassette tool, it’s a still a spanner bigger than on your typical multi tool or a vice you’re going to need.

NBT2

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foxyrider
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby foxyrider » 16 Dec 2019, 7:36pm

David9694 wrote:I’ve broken a spoke a couple of times on 32h rear wheels riding unladen. on the one hand the breakage wasn’t an emergency show stopper, but on the other, you’re almost certainly going to have to remove your cassette, so even if you carry the spare spokes and cassette tool, it’s a still a spanner bigger than on your typical multi tool or a vice you’re going to need.


not if you carry an emergency spoke :wink: :wink:

over the years i've had more issues with 36 spoke wheels than any other spoke count, i've toured (okay with a light load) on Campag Zonda's, usual camping bikes both run 32's with which i've had no spoke breakages (but one broken nipple). Can't recall ever breaking a spoke in my 28's.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby The utility cyclist » 16 Dec 2019, 7:48pm

21pavone wrote:I’ve been a cyclist for many years and when touring with panniers I’ve always used 36 spoke wheels or 32 for a short, lighter laden trip. My new Trek Checkpoint ALR5 has 28 spoke wheels, Trek quoting a maximum weight limit (bike + rider + cargo) of 125kg/275lb. I’m 77kg/170lb so it looks as though there’s plenty of scope but I’m still sceptical about the durability of wheels with fewer spokes than I’m used to. Need someone to either put my mind at rest about the wheels that came with the bike or tell me I need another set with more spokes for heavier touring.


I've ridden Mavic's Factory built ksyrium SSCs with 20/18 spoke count at 107kg actual body weight for thousands of miles, also ride 24/20 carbon wheels and have done so at the aforementioned weight.
I bought a pair of 28/24 Dura Ace/Velocity wheels for light touring and audax, I shan't be concerned riding well in excess of 100kg on board with gear, I've also ride 24/20 alu Pro lite wheels off road with some wider tyres.
IMO, ride the wheels, get your tyres and pressures sorted, check the spokes are all as they should be tension wise if you're really bothered and you'll be fine.

David9694
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby David9694 » 16 Dec 2019, 8:47pm

Hobby item purchase authorisation form

Leave on dining room table FAO spouse

Description of Desired item
Price £
Actual price £
You think I don’t know when you’re lying?? £

Part A replacement items:
I need this because the old one
Broke
Wore out
Got lost
Got stolen
Chafed
Went out of style
Makes an annoying noise:
Clunk, clunk, clunk
Schveeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Ping ping ping
Creak creak creak
I bought the wrong thing
If wrong thing, are you returning it?
if no, give reasons:
There’s no gravel
Came from
China/ Germany/ USA
Auction
Keeping it in case it comes in handy

(please include old item or description of loss)

Part B: new Or upgrade items
I need this because:
I had to walk home 5, 10 miles because I incurred the problem this thing fixes
I just heard about gravel cycling
This is better than the one half its price because:
favourable review in Cycling Magazine - state no of stars
Terry has got one, swears by it
Phil never leaves the house without it
This will make me go faster and longer
(state hourly wattage saving: 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, 0.4 or weight saved 10, 20, 50, 100, 200g)
Just read Cycling magazine and there are people three times my age crossing the Capathian mountains on a 1957 Rotrax/ Roberts/ Mercian And I need the morale boost
Disc brakes/ oval chainrings/press-fit bottom bracket/ a light That doubles as a dog deterrent/ a map app with every barista machine on it - what’s not to like?

21pavone
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby 21pavone » 16 Dec 2019, 8:47pm

The utility cyclist wrote:I've ridden Mavic's Factory built ksyrium SSCs with 20/18 spoke count at 107kg actual body weight for thousands of miles, also ride 24/20 carbon wheels and have done so at the aforementioned weight.
I bought a pair of 28/24 Dura Ace/Velocity wheels for light touring and audax, I shan't be concerned riding well in excess of 100kg on board with gear, I've also ride 24/20 alu Pro lite wheels off road with some wider tyres.
IMO, ride the wheels, get your tyres and pressures sorted, check the spokes are all as they should be tension wise if you're really bothered and you'll be fine.


Any responses attempting to dissuade me from buying a new, shiny pair of wheels will be ignored. n+1 applies to wheels too. Well it does in my universe!

Debs
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby Debs » 16 Dec 2019, 9:07pm

21pavone wrote:Any responses attempting to dissuade me from buying a new, shiny pair of wheels will be ignored. n+1 applies to wheels too. Well it does in my universe!


If you live anywhere near Bristol, get Ryan to build you a nice pair :wink:

https://www.ryanbuildswheels.co.uk/

mattheus
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby mattheus » 17 Dec 2019, 10:30am

The utility cyclist wrote:
21pavone wrote:I’ve been a cyclist for many years and when touring with panniers I’ve always used 36 spoke wheels or 32 for a short, lighter laden trip. My new Trek Checkpoint ALR5 has 28 spoke wheels, Trek quoting a maximum weight limit (bike + rider + cargo) of 125kg/275lb. I’m 77kg/170lb so it looks as though there’s plenty of scope but I’m still sceptical about the durability of wheels with fewer spokes than I’m used to. Need someone to either put my mind at rest about the wheels that came with the bike or tell me I need another set with more spokes for heavier touring.


I've ridden Mavic's Factory built ksyrium SSCs with 20/18 spoke count at 107kg actual body weight for thousands of miles, also ride 24/20 carbon wheels and have done so at the aforementioned weight.
I bought a pair of 28/24 Dura Ace/Velocity wheels for light touring and audax, I shan't be concerned riding well in excess of 100kg on board with gear, I've also ride 24/20 alu Pro lite wheels off road with some wider tyres.
IMO, ride the wheels, get your tyres and pressures sorted, check the spokes are all as they should be tension wise if you're really bothered and you'll be fine.



Are you saying that spoke count makes no difference at all to robustness?

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby The utility cyclist » 17 Dec 2019, 9:58pm

mattheus wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
21pavone wrote:I’ve been a cyclist for many years and when touring with panniers I’ve always used 36 spoke wheels or 32 for a short, lighter laden trip. My new Trek Checkpoint ALR5 has 28 spoke wheels, Trek quoting a maximum weight limit (bike + rider + cargo) of 125kg/275lb. I’m 77kg/170lb so it looks as though there’s plenty of scope but I’m still sceptical about the durability of wheels with fewer spokes than I’m used to. Need someone to either put my mind at rest about the wheels that came with the bike or tell me I need another set with more spokes for heavier touring.


I've ridden Mavic's Factory built ksyrium SSCs with 20/18 spoke count at 107kg actual body weight for thousands of miles, also ride 24/20 carbon wheels and have done so at the aforementioned weight.
I bought a pair of 28/24 Dura Ace/Velocity wheels for light touring and audax, I shan't be concerned riding well in excess of 100kg on board with gear, I've also ride 24/20 alu Pro lite wheels off road with some wider tyres.
IMO, ride the wheels, get your tyres and pressures sorted, check the spokes are all as they should be tension wise if you're really bothered and you'll be fine.



Are you saying that spoke count makes no difference at all to robustness?

Show me were I have said that? :?
I'm saying that for me and my experience over a decent period of time and being a fairly heavy rider at 107kg peak and still 96kg, low spoke count wheels does not equate to poor durability or unable to take a 'load' or not be able to be used in a manner that may involve some impacts as you might expect on either general commuting or gravel road riding.
For the OP and their weight, heavy touring would not generally get them to my upper body weight, thus the 28 spoke wheels that came with their bike IME would be fine for whatever road discipline they see fit, as I said, checking the wheels beforehand might be prudent.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby The utility cyclist » 17 Dec 2019, 10:07pm

21pavone wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:I've ridden Mavic's Factory built ksyrium SSCs with 20/18 spoke count at 107kg actual body weight for thousands of miles, also ride 24/20 carbon wheels and have done so at the aforementioned weight.
I bought a pair of 28/24 Dura Ace/Velocity wheels for light touring and audax, I shan't be concerned riding well in excess of 100kg on board with gear, I've also ride 24/20 alu Pro lite wheels off road with some wider tyres.
IMO, ride the wheels, get your tyres and pressures sorted, check the spokes are all as they should be tension wise if you're really bothered and you'll be fine.


Any responses attempting to dissuade me from buying a new, shiny pair of wheels will be ignored. n+1 applies to wheels too. Well it does in my universe!


I never said don't get new wheels, I'm saying that the 28 spoke wheels you have would be suffice for your needs, by all means buy some nice handbuilts or factory jobs, I've 14 pairs including three pair of carbon tubs and the usual odds n sods, 6 pairs are for different days/duties and/or as backups/future replacements that came up as a too good to miss purchase.

Edited as I've sold on 62 pairs of wheels ... :lol:
Last edited by The utility cyclist on 18 Dec 2019, 10:09pm, edited 1 time in total.

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foxyrider
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby foxyrider » 17 Dec 2019, 10:08pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
mattheus wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
I've ridden Mavic's Factory built ksyrium SSCs with 20/18 spoke count at 107kg actual body weight for thousands of miles, also ride 24/20 carbon wheels and have done so at the aforementioned weight.
I bought a pair of 28/24 Dura Ace/Velocity wheels for light touring and audax, I shan't be concerned riding well in excess of 100kg on board with gear, I've also ride 24/20 alu Pro lite wheels off road with some wider tyres.
IMO, ride the wheels, get your tyres and pressures sorted, check the spokes are all as they should be tension wise if you're really bothered and you'll be fine.



Are you saying that spoke count makes no difference at all to robustness?

Show me were I have said that? :?
I'm saying that for me and my experience over a decent period of time and being a fairly heavy rider at 107kg peak and still 96kg, low spoke count wheels does not equate to poor durability or unable to take a 'load' or not be able to be used in a manner that may involve some impacts as you might expect on either general commuting or gravel road riding.
For the OP and their weight, heavy touring would not generally get them to my upper body weight, thus the 28 spoke wheels that came with their bike IME would be fine for whatever road discipline they see fit, as I said, checking the wheels beforehand might be prudent.


+1 from a 'svelte' 85kg rider!
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

mig
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby mig » 17 Dec 2019, 10:55pm

the reason i don't prefer factory built wheels is that i tend to use wheels over a long period of time.

i have some 16 spoke cosmics from the 90s. would a spoke or nipple for those even be available now? race wheels of that era admittedly but the same would be true of early shimano etc road wheels. built in obsolesence.

the rear wheel in my commuter bike is from the mid 80s. just keeps trundling. if a spoke breaks then a standard spoke and a bit of fettling and it's back on the road.

Brucey
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby Brucey » 17 Dec 2019, 11:18pm

rider weight is only one component of service loading and you shouldn't expect that rider weight will always load the wheels comparably with rider + luggage weight either.

Reliability is an odd thing; very few parts are systematically 100% unreliable, so even with parts that are not terribly reliable you will get folk pipe up and say 'those worked for me' and in truth you don't have any idea how their service conditions might compare with someone else's. For example a big lad pedalling smoothly -and not very forcefully- on a good road will be giving almost every single part of the bike a much easier time than a racing snake giving it 'what for' on a bumpy road.

Parts that are simply not fit for purpose might 'only' have a failure rate of 10% in any given service but that still potentially leaves nine people saying 'they are alright' for every one that says 'they broke'. Parts that, when they fail might kill or seriously injure you, can have a much lower failure rate and still be completely unacceptable.

So the advice is that where reliability trumps everything else, best to stick to what is known to work or is most likely to work. Anything that might break needs to be repairable ideally. Any 'advantage' through weight saving etc needs to be well thought through and real, rather than fashion-driven and largely imaginary.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

fastpedaller
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Re: Wheels - number of spokes

Postby fastpedaller » 18 Dec 2019, 10:58am

[quote="The utility cyclist" I've 14 pairs including three pair of carbon tubs and the usual odds n sods,68 pairs are for different days/duties and/or as backups/future replacements that came up as a too good to miss purchase.[/quote]

Wow! Did I read that correctly? Do you have 80 pairs of wheels? if so, it's not surprising they last a long while :lol: