Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

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niggle
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Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby niggle » 22 Dec 2019, 8:08am

Looking for a left shifter for the R443 9 speed front mech on a flat bar road bike. These are designated Sora but are hard to find and expensive, and MTB shifters have a different cable pull so not compatible, however SJS have a "Tiagra 10 speed" one for a reasonable price https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifte ... left-hand/ so just checking that my assumption that a "10 speed" triple shifter will shift a "9 speed" just fine is correct.

Brucey
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby Brucey » 22 Dec 2019, 4:39pm

I think the 10s triple FD is the only Tiagra 4700 shift ratio that is the same as 9s ones. Worst case is that if it doesn't work, you will need to fiddle with the FD or buy another one that matches the new shifter.

cheers
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UpWrong
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby UpWrong » 24 Dec 2019, 8:02pm

I thought the R443 used MTB cable pull?

Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 24 Dec 2019, 8:05pm

As said above, unless it’s 4700 Tiagra, it will work.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby The utility cyclist » 24 Dec 2019, 9:25pm

niggle wrote:Looking for a left shifter for the R443 9 speed front mech on a flat bar road bike. These are designated Sora but are hard to find and expensive, and MTB shifters have a different cable pull so not compatible, however SJS have a "Tiagra 10 speed" one for a reasonable price https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifte ... left-hand/ so just checking that my assumption that a "10 speed" triple shifter will shift a "9 speed" just fine is correct.

Most of the older style flat bar triple shifters are compatible with the other flat bar triple mechs*

The 443 IS Tiagra, 3503 was the more modern Sora variant and superseded by the R3000, the number designation is the clue, FD 773 FD-A553 (older variant) 443 etc work with the SL773/443 shifters, I haven't checked with the Sora left shifter as I haven't had one as yet but they look identical in all but designation, the SORA front mech is FD-R353-B https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 353-B.html
This was an '8 speed' pair that ended last week, this has the 443 left shifter, given they didn't sell you might be able to negotiate and be able to flog the rear/right shifter for an almost nil cost https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-SHIMANO ... 7675.l2557

Also of live auctions there is a new Sora here that you might get for a decent price with a bit of last second sniping :wink:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-Sora ... Sw8Add7DTR

*Some variants use road/drop bar STI specific triple front mechs such as the SL-4603

luck hunting

niggle
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby niggle » 24 Dec 2019, 10:40pm

Thanks all, just to further explain the bike, which is not mine and is a Giant Rapid 9 speed triple flat bar road bike, currently has a road triple Hollowtech II chainset and a Sora triple FD (crud and corrosion have stopped me so far in identifying it) that won't shift far enough across to the big ring. Even pulling on the cable with the H limit screw unscrewed way out it just stops at a point that is barely adequate for the middle ring. It has a SRAM (don't ask) triple shifter that obviously struggles to move the FD even from granny to middle, and has lost the second click to shift to the big ring, no doubt due to all the strain it has been put under. My thinking was to find a 9 speed flat bar road triple FD and shifter that would work together, but I only knew of the R443 FD, hence that is where I started. Now I am thinking I first need to look again at the FD and work out why it won't work at all, e.g. is the chainline wrong.

Jan Marten
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby Jan Marten » 25 Dec 2019, 5:49pm

The FD shifter doesn't care whether the RD is 9 or 10 or other speed. Assuming the shifter is all good* then if the FD is problematic, it's an FD issue.
1) I would check age of FD. Aged units have excessive play caused by wear.
2) Check for any restrictions. Kinked cable, small stone lodged in mechanism, damaged skid plate, etc.
3) Chainline. Correct number of driveside spacers on BB - 1 x 2.5mm for 73mm shell, 2 x 2.5mm for 68mm shell. BB mounted chain guide counts as one spacer.

* It is possible, although unlikely, that the problem is the shifter itself. Only real way to check this, is by removing the covers, cleaning the ratchets, springs, etc. and observing the mechanism when cycling through up and down shifting.
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niggle
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby niggle » 25 Dec 2019, 6:17pm

Jan Marten wrote:The FD shifter doesn't care whether the RD is 9 or 10 or other speed. Assuming the shifter is all good* then if the FD is problematic, it's an FD issue.
1) I would check age of FD. Aged units have excessive play caused by wear.
2) Check for any restrictions. Kinked cable, small stone lodged in mechanism, damaged skid plate, etc.
3) Chainline. Correct number of driveside spacers on BB - 1 x 2.5mm for 73mm shell, 2 x 2.5mm for 68mm shell. BB mounted chain guide counts as one spacer.

* It is possible, although unlikely, that the problem is the shifter itself. Only real way to check this, is by removing the covers, cleaning the ratchets, springs, etc. and observing the mechanism when cycling through up and down shifting.

No real signs of excessive play, but the FD does not allow any further travel beyond the middle ring even when pulling on the cable at the middle of the down tube with the H limit screw backed out a long way. This eleminates the shifter as the source of the problem, even though it is a SRAM shifter and has lost it's second click. No cable issues under the BB etc. but as you say chainline is suspect, the owner says not much on the bike is original and he does not seem to have understood much about compatibility as he has replaced things, case in point the SRAM left shifter. At the headset I found very poor condition sealed bearings and a stuck compression ring, due to a quite pronounced worn channel in the alloy steerer, so I condemned the fork in no uncertain terms, whereupon he produced a Giant Defy road bike that had belonged to his son and I was able to graft on the fork and use the identical bearings from that bike, all be it with a slight front end drop (about 1cm) and about an inch shorter steerer. To be fair it looks totally genuine due to having the same white and blue colour scheme...

EDIT: the front caliper brake from the Defy forks was left in place, it was fine with much more pad material than the original pads, but I did swap the brake pad carriers round as they were back-to-front with the open end of the pad carriers facing forwards...

Jan Marten
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby Jan Marten » 25 Dec 2019, 7:01pm

"FD does not allow any further travel beyond the middle ring even when pulling on the cable at the middle of the down tube with the H limit screw backed out a long way"

That leads me to suspect a foreign body in the derailleur mechanism. Even a tiny stone can obstruct the pivots. This problem is quite common in Shimano XT750 series derailleurs. Look carefully, very carefully. Stones enter from above and then get wedged below the plastic cover. I have no experience of other types of FDs.
Ride, Eat, Sleep. Repeat

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby The utility cyclist » 25 Dec 2019, 11:35pm

niggle wrote:Thanks all, just to further explain the bike, which is not mine and is a Giant Rapid 9 speed triple flat bar road bike, currently has a road triple Hollowtech II chainset and a Sora triple FD (crud and corrosion have stopped me so far in identifying it) that won't shift far enough across to the big ring. Even pulling on the cable with the H limit screw unscrewed way out it just stops at a point that is barely adequate for the middle ring. It has a SRAM (don't ask) triple shifter that obviously struggles to move the FD even from granny to middle, and has lost the second click to shift to the big ring, no doubt due to all the strain it has been put under. My thinking was to find a 9 speed flat bar road triple FD and shifter that would work together, but I only knew of the R443 FD, hence that is where I started. Now I am thinking I first need to look again at the FD and work out why it won't work at all, e.g. is the chainline wrong.

Looking at the spec sheet on the Giant website this seems to suggest the 2015 Rapid 9 triple should be an FD 453 and the shifter should be a Tiagra 443, there is an 8 speed triple variant with Sora mech mechs and shifters.

Jan Marten
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby Jan Marten » 26 Dec 2019, 12:41am

Any chance the FD is set at the wrong position on the seat tube and the skid plate is hitting the middle or outer chain ring?
Try this: Loosen FD cable and clamp and move FD up 2/3cm on seat tube, tighten FD in new position. Now manually pull FD* to extend over largest chain ring. Does that work? If yes, it's not an FD problem, but likely a cable length adjustment issue.

* Easier to do all this if you unthread chain from FD cage.
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niggle
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby niggle » 26 Dec 2019, 10:03am

Jan Marten wrote:Any chance the FD is set at the wrong position on the seat tube and the skid plate is hitting the middle or outer chain ring?
Try this: Loosen FD cable and clamp and move FD up 2/3cm on seat tube, tighten FD in new position. Now manually pull FD* to extend over largest chain ring. Does that work? If yes, it's not an FD problem, but likely a cable length adjustment issue.

* Easier to do all this if you unthread chain from FD cage.

As I said I pulled on the FD cable on the down tube, doing so whilst rotating the cranks and the mech wouldn't shift beyond the middle ring and the cage was definitely not hitting the outer ring, in fact it looks a little high. It is braze on so not that much room to move vertically, but still I will have another closer look with the chain off, including checking it is not hitting the middle ring, before condemning it.

I have trawled through the Shimano compatibility archives and back when the bike was made it would have had the FD-R453 FD as you say, compatible with SL-R441 or SL-R661 shifters, but later the flat bar 9 speed triple line-up was replaced with Sora designated shifters SL-R353, SL-3503 & SL-R3030 and Sora designated FDs FD-R353, FD-3503 & FD-R3030. It is a sudden changeover with the earlier line-up dissappearing and being replaced by the later one between one year and the next, so no cross compatibility listed between the early and late line-ups, however in the last couple of years the later 9 speed FDs are listed as compatible with Sora STI drop bar shifters, and from way back the 8 speed FD variant, designated FD-R453A, was listed as compatible with Sora STI 8 speed drop bar shifters, all of which suggests to me that everything flat bar (and probably drop bar) 9 speed triple, old and new, is actually compatible.

Best deals on line I have found are here:
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... eft-680177
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... -on-533073
but as said I need to check first whether a new FD is even required.

Jan Marten
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby Jan Marten » 28 Dec 2019, 11:45pm

Did you solve the problem? Yes, tell us how/why, etc.
Ride, Eat, Sleep. Repeat

niggle
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby niggle » 29 Dec 2019, 6:17am

Jan Marten wrote:Did you solve the problem? Yes, tell us how/why, etc.

Will be looking at it in the New Year, will update then.

nigelnightmare
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Re: Will a "10 speed" left triple shifter work on a 9 speed triple?

Postby nigelnightmare » 3 Jan 2020, 10:47pm

It's new year. :mrgreen:
Can we have the promised update?