Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

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Brucey
Posts: 36640
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby Brucey » 4 Jan 2020, 11:16pm

the main problem with tyres that don't go 'pop' is that (regardless of whether they are too tight or too loose or whether they hold air once the sealant is added) they are not seated well enough to be well-retained on the rim in the event of deflation. This means if you get a puncture on the road, the tyre is liable to come unseated and you will have to reseat it. I dunno how many CO2 cartridges are 'definitely enough' to be sure of this.

BTW I'm not very optimistic about the brave new world of rims and tyres that always fit together well; it has been pot luck for years with tubed tyres and we are expected to believe that tubeless ones will all be 'perfect' suddenly? Pull the other one. Recently I have seen tubeless rims and tyres from the same manufacturer (NB said manufacturer is of good repute and was in the thick of the new standard development) and their parts didn't even fit one another consistently.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Racingt
Posts: 98
Joined: 23 Oct 2015, 6:45am

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby Racingt » 5 Jan 2020, 9:16am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Do yourself a favour. Take the tubeless tyres off, and throw them in the bin, where they belong. It’s for the best.

Hi Marcus,
I have sympathy with your viewpoint. Also two bikes - one is tubed, mechanical, calliper brakes. The other disc, Di2, tubeless - well at least one wheel.
Maybe in a year I will decide which is better for me, at the moment, I'm hedging my bets!

Racingt
Posts: 98
Joined: 23 Oct 2015, 6:45am

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby Racingt » 5 Jan 2020, 9:19am

NickJP wrote:
RickH wrote:
CXRAndy wrote:Once the tyre is on, I then remove about 6" with tyre levers, turn one lever sideways to create an opening. Pour in 75 millilitres of Orange seal 'Endurance'

The Orange sealant I got came with a tube to attach to the top of the bottle. The tube fits over the valve with the core removed. That seems a much better way of adding the sealant than partially unseating the tyres you've just fitted.


Ditto here. Rather than unseating the bead to add the sealant, I remove the valve core and inject the sealant through the valve. With a properly designed tubeless rim, the beads stay in place with the tyre deflated. Sealant top-up every few months can be done the same way.

Agreed -sealant will be added through the valve. But I would prefer to find the source of huge air loss beforehand

Racingt
Posts: 98
Joined: 23 Oct 2015, 6:45am

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby Racingt » 5 Jan 2020, 9:20am

mattsccm wrote:It sounds as if you are getting the duff one inflated but it loses pressure. If so try using a bit of soapy water around both beads and inflating hard. Max pressure maybe. It should pop on. If it won't even do that you'll have to find the gap. If you can get pressure then add a bit of sealant. Best way is via a valve with removable valve. I use a syringe. Pump it up hard and swill the sealant round a bit. Usually works for me. Or sit in a wheel jig and spin it, prayer wheel style, and keep the wheel moving.
Just check there isn't anything daft like the tape being misplaced.
Spread soapy water all over the tyre and the bubbles may show you the leak.
You obviously have a decent set up or one wouldn't work.

Matt, thanks for reminding me about the soapy water technique - seen it at the car garage. I was thinking my entire wheel wouldn't fit into the kitchen sink for checking - doh..

Racingt
Posts: 98
Joined: 23 Oct 2015, 6:45am

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby Racingt » 5 Jan 2020, 9:29am

Brucey wrote:the main problem with tyres that don't go 'pop' is that (regardless of whether they are too tight or too loose or whether they hold air once the sealant is added) they are not seated well enough to be well-retained on the rim in the event of deflation. This means if you get a puncture on the road, the tyre is liable to come unseated and you will have to reseat it. I dunno how many CO2 cartridges are 'definitely enough' to be sure of this.

BTW I'm not very optimistic about the brave new world of rims and tyres that always fit together well; it has been pot luck for years with tubed tyres and we are expected to believe that tubeless ones will all be 'perfect' suddenly? Pull the other one. Recently I have seen tubeless rims and tyres from the same manufacturer (NB said manufacturer is of good repute and was in the thick of the new standard development) and their parts didn't even fit one another consistently.

cheers

Bruce, I've had a good experience of riding tubeless, completely trouble free for 18 months, now is the first time with issues, also the first time that I've had to do any work on the bike.
I'm not entirely convinced of tubeless merits either, hence my second bike will retain tubes. It is possible this rear wheel will also contain a tube if I cannot resolve this satisfactorily.
Some of the progress we have seen in cycling is great in my view, but also we need to know what we are leaving behind, because the old- tech is as well developed as it has ever been. (I recently purchased DA R9000 at sale prices, because maybe its the peak of cable shifting/braking)

dim
Posts: 327
Joined: 12 May 2019, 5:59pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby dim » 5 Jan 2020, 10:14am

I'm going into my 3rd year of using tubeless tyres and have them fitted to both my bikes

I don't see what all the fuss is about .... it's simple if you follow a few basic procedures. I have a wider range of tyres to choose from, can ride using lower pressures for comfort, can fit faster tyres and I don't have to worry about pinch flats.

In the past 2 months, I had 2 punctures that have both self sealed ... all that happened, is I lost a bit of pressure (I did not even have to top up with air) .... I may have had more punctures that sealed instantly without me knowing

when I go on a ride, I have a Co2 kit, a spare inner tube and a dynaplug racer kit .... all fit snugly in my top tube bag or in my jersey pocket

in the worst case scenario, if a puncture does not seal with the latex, or the dynaplug, I need to add an inner tube (I would have to do that anyway if I were using clinchers) .... I've never had to fit a inner tube yet but still carry an inner tube for te worst case scenario

then there's the argument of when the tyre looses all it's pressure due to a gash whilst cycling, the tyre can come off the rim ..... the exact same thing happens with a clincher tyre and a tube ... the only safer bet is tubulars (so I'm told.... I have no experience with tubulars)

from what I have seen, most new bikes (quality bikes) are now being sold with tubeless ready rims as standard .... you choose what you want to use.... tubeless tyres or clincher tyres on the rims (a tubeless rim allows you to choose between a tubeless or clincher tyre .... they both fit the rim)

A lot of the problems that relate to people not being able to fit tubeless tyres to rims is the fact that they either have too many layers of rimtape or they have the wrong rimtape

I'm planning a tour of a part of the Wild Atlantic Way in Ireland this year, and I will use tubeless (still deciding if I should use Schwalbe Marathon Supreme or Panaracer Gravelking Sk)

Brucey
Posts: 36640
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2020, 11:23am

well maybe it is just a coincidence, maybe it isn't, but the last person I saw with a puncture ( I stopped to offer help ) was running tubeless. He'd gone out for a sunday afternoon spin on his fairly new road bike and had of course flatted. There were at least two holes in the rear tyre, both too big for the sealant to work. He had a CO2 inflator, a pump and a nifty little gadget that would fit plugs into bigger holes in the tyre.

When I saw him he'd used over half the plugs he was carrying and most of the CO2 cartridges. The plug repairs were quickly and easily carried out using the tool but were not entirely effective, still leaking air. When the repair was placed at the low point of the wheel a puddle of sealant soon emerged. Both the bike and the rider had sealant splashed all over them.

His plan was a much longer ride than the one he'd managed so far, but now he was more worried about getting home at all; fortunately there was a bike shop nearby and it was still open, so the last I saw of him he was headed for that.

Several things occurred to me.

1. He'd not 'chosen' tubeless, it just turned up on the bike he'd bought. He'd been told it was the latest thing and very good in the shop where he had bought his bike.
2. He was reasonably well equipped to deal with punctures but he was still in the poop.
3. He was unlucky to puncture in the way he had.
4. The holes in the tyre were larger than those that might be made by a thorn, but not so large that the structure (cords) in the tyre would be corrupted. Probably they were glass cuts.
5. I don't know what sealant he was using but whatever it was it didn't work.
6. Nor did the plugs
7. The tyres at least didn't come unseated from the rim when they went flat.
8 . On the other hand it wasn't clear that the tyre wasn't so tight that it could be easily removed by the side of the road should a tube need to be fitted.
9. The tyres he was using (some kind of quite posh vittorias) would have been nice summer tyres. I'd probably not use tyres like that in the winter.
10. Possibly the fact that it is more of a faff to change tubeless tyres had deterred him from fitting tyres that were better suited to the conditions .
11. Probably the rear tyre (which wasn't that old) could have been patched on the inside (in a workshop or at home) but probably it was now headed for the bin; the tyres would have to be removed, the plugs would need to be taken out, the sealant cleaned up, then patches applied, tyre refitted and seated and more sealant added. Not a five minute job and a new tyre (about £40 a go for the ones he was using) would be a safer bet.

So anyone with any common sense (and tubed tyres) would have changed to winter tyres and having been unlucky enough to puncture would have whacked a spare tube in and been on their way. On the other hand had the holes been smaller and the sealant better, he might have completed his ride without even noticing that there were holes in the tyre. Personally I can't see the benefit of trying to run summer tyres in winter, but it seems this isn't that uncommon amongst tubeless users.

So I don't know how likely this kind of puncture event is; as I said above it might just be coincidence. But I know what tubeless tyres are often like to fit in the first place and what they can be like to remove; it varies of course but it is always more of a PITA than I am used to. Events of this type don't exactly inspire me to adopt tubeless tyres on my bikes.

FWIW I carry a pump and some patches all the time and spare tube(s) on longer rides. I have (touch wood, and despite running tyres that are thin ( less than 3mm total thickness through the tread when new) not had a puncture of any kind for about two years and of the last five punctures I have had, at least two of them resulted in holes so large that sealant and plugs wouldn't have helped anyway. So in my case tubeless offers me very little apart from almost inevitable faff and mess, plus probably having to carry more stuff around with me.

I note that once you have tubeless rims, the die is cast to some extent; tubeless rims (if made to the 'new standard') will have lips in the well and smaller hooks in the bead than used to be the case. The former will make any tyre (tubeless or not) more difficult to remove and refit (and if absent a tubeless tyre will unseat itself as soon as it is deflated) , and the latter means that you can't run high pressures with tubeless tyres. Although higher pressures are possible with tubes fitted, they are still not as high as would be permitted with ordinary hook bead rims. So if you want to run high pressures, you can't do so as readily or at all.

Upon reflection maybe the new tubeless standard should have been for a slightly smaller bead seat diameter, so that the matching rims would also accept tubed tyres without a struggle. That way there would be less downside to buying tubeless compatible rims if you are still on the fence about tubeless tyres.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

hemo
Posts: 615
Joined: 16 Nov 2017, 5:40pm
Location: West Sussex

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby hemo » 5 Jan 2020, 11:31am

The coldness of CO2 can affect sealant I believe so most advise not to use it, by all means use it to 'pop' tyres in to the bead then use a normal air pump to get the psi required.

dim
Posts: 327
Joined: 12 May 2019, 5:59pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby dim » 5 Jan 2020, 11:55am

Brucey wrote:well maybe it is just a coincidence, maybe it isn't, but the last person I saw with a puncture ( I stopped to offer help ) was running tubeless. He'd gone out for a sunday afternoon spin on his fairly new road bike and had of course flatted. There were at least two holes in the rear tyre, both too big for the sealant to work. He had a CO2 inflator, a pump and a nifty little gadget that would fit plugs into bigger holes in the tyre.

When I saw him he'd used over half the plugs he was carrying and most of the CO2 cartridges. The plug repairs were quickly and easily carried out using the tool but were not entirely effective, still leaking air. When the repair was placed at the low point of the wheel a puddle of sealant soon emerged. Both the bike and the rider had sealant splashed all over them.

His plan was a much longer ride than the one he'd managed so far, but now he was more worried about getting home at all; fortunately there was a bike shop nearby and it was still open, so the last I saw of him he was headed for that.

Several things occurred to me.

1. He'd not 'chosen' tubeless, it just turned up on the bike he'd bought. He'd been told it was the latest thing and very good in the shop where he had bought his bike.
2. He was reasonably well equipped to deal with punctures but he was still in the poop.
3. He was unlucky to puncture in the way he had.
4. The holes in the tyre were larger than those that might be made by a thorn, but not so large that the structure (cords) in the tyre would be corrupted. Probably they were glass cuts.
5. I don't know what sealant he was using but whatever it was it didn't work.
6. Nor did the plugs
7. The tyres at least didn't come unseated from the rim when they went flat.
8 . On the other hand it wasn't clear that the tyre wasn't so tight that it could be easily removed by the side of the road should a tube need to be fitted.
9. The tyres he was using (some kind of quite posh vittorias) would have been nice summer tyres. I'd probably not use tyres like that in the winter.
10. Possibly the fact that it is more of a faff to change tubeless tyres had deterred him from fitting tyres that were better suited to the conditions .
11. Probably the rear tyre (which wasn't that old) could have been patched on the inside (in a workshop or at home) but probably it was now headed for the bin; the tyres would have to be removed, the plugs would need to be taken out, the sealant cleaned up, then patches applied, tyre refitted and seated and more sealant added. Not a five minute job and a new tyre (about £40 a go for the ones he was using) would be a safer bet.

So anyone with any common sense (and tubed tyres) would have changed to winter tyres and having been unlucky enough to puncture would have whacked a spare tube in and been on their way. On the other hand had the holes been smaller and the sealant better, he might have completed his ride without even noticing that there were holes in the tyre. Personally I can't see the benefit of trying to run summer tyres in winter, but it seems this isn't that uncommon amongst tubeless users.

So I don't know how likely this kind of puncture event is; as I said above it might just be coincidence. But I know what tubeless tyres are often like to fit in the first place and what they can be like to remove; it varies of course but it is always more of a PITA than I am used to. Events of this type don't exactly inspire me to adopt tubeless tyres on my bikes.

FWIW I carry a pump and some patches all the time and spare tube(s) on longer rides. I have (touch wood, and despite running tyres that are thin ( less than 3mm total thickness through the tread when new) not had a puncture of any kind for about two years and of the last five punctures I have had, at least two of them resulted in holes so large that sealant and plugs wouldn't have helped anyway. So in my case tubeless offers me very little apart from almost inevitable faff and mess, plus probably having to carry more stuff around with me.

I note that once you have tubeless rims, the die is cast to some extent; tubeless rims (if made to the 'new standard') will have lips in the well and smaller hooks in the bead than used to be the case. The former will make any tyre (tubeless or not) more difficult to remove and refit (and if absent a tubeless tyre will unseat itself as soon as it is deflated) , and the latter means that you can't run high pressures with tubeless tyres. Although higher pressures are possible with tubes fitted, they are still not as high as would be permitted with ordinary hook bead rims. So if you want to run high pressures, you can't do so as readily or at all.

Upon reflection maybe the new tubeless standard should have been for a slightly smaller bead seat diameter, so that the matching rims would also accept tubed tyres without a struggle. That way there would be less downside to buying tubeless compatible rims if you are still on the fence about tubeless tyres.

cheers


golden rule.... always carry a spare innertube if you use tubeless ... had he done that, he would have been back on the road in 5 minutes

dim
Posts: 327
Joined: 12 May 2019, 5:59pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby dim » 5 Jan 2020, 11:59am

hemo wrote:The coldness of CO2 can affect sealant I believe so most advise not to use it, by all means use it to 'pop' tyres in to the bead then use a normal air pump to get the psi required.


can be done that way, however, some sealants are not effected much by Co2 (Orange being one of them)

the trick is that you need to position the valve at the 12 O'Clock position so that the sealant is at the 6 O'clock position .... then use the Co2

and bear in mind that the sealant is only there so that it will seal a future puncture .... you could ride another 4000Km before the next puncture and only then will the selant be needed again

some guys don't use sealant at all and just carry an innertube for emergencies

rfryer
Posts: 706
Joined: 7 Feb 2013, 3:58pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby rfryer » 5 Jan 2020, 12:06pm

I've had two personal experiences of (ride-affecting) punctures in tubeless tyres. I'm still pro-tubeless, but accept that they have limitations.

One was a friend's bike, where his tyre suddenly went soft. A quick re-inflation (with a Fumpa pump) and spin of the wheel, and he was on his way. Big win for tubeless!

The second was my bike, where I had a pinch flat (one hole high on the sidewall, and another next to the rim). The damage seemed quite minor, but refused to seal. I plugged the hole I could get at, but it still took several minutes and a few false starts before it sealed. The hole at the rim self-sealed, which was fortunate as it would have been tricky to plug in that location. Once the tyre has sealed, I had some plug material sticking out that kept catching on my mudguard stays. Less of a clear win for tubeless this time; I'd have fixed a tubed tyre more quickly, and with greater certainty. On the other hand, it would have cost me an inner tube, and I'd have got dirtier in the process.

Following that incident, I've started carrying spare sealant, and a knife for tidying any future efforts at plugging. Also, I'd recommend persevering if a hole doesn't plug easily - my tyre has been holding pressure happily since that incident, though I was on the verge of giving up and phoning for a lift at the time.

Brucey
Posts: 36640
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2020, 12:08pm

CO2 also turns the inside of the tyre slightly acidic; some sealants rely on being alkaline to stay fluid, so CO2 isn't good with those either, in the long run. I don't think this takes effect immediately though, I think it can take at least hours (if not days) to turn the sealant bad.

FWIW the weather was not bad (between 5 and 10 degrees C) and the tyre itself didn't seem especially cold to the touch. If temperature was responsible for the sealant not working, I'd say it wasn't suitable for use in the UK.

golden rule.... always carry a spare innertube if you use tubeless ... had he done that, he would have been back on the road in 5 minutes


maybe. It depends how tight the tyre is on the rim. Some tubeless tyres on some rims are virtually impossible to remove quickly by the roadside because they are so tight on the rim. You still have the sealant to deal with too; although he and his bike were already covered in the stuff (it, er, comes out if it doesn't seal a hole.... :roll: ) there was still more to come. You also have the valve stem to remove. IME if the nut on a tubeless valve is tight enough to seal properly (valve stems vary), the stem often can't be removed without using a pair of pliers on the nut. Which he didn't have. I couldn't move the nut with my fingers, else he could have fitted a tube (mine or his). As it was there was no point in trying to unseat the tyre, so we didn't find out if it was super-tight or not. I suspect it was pretty tight, else it might have unseated already, when the tyre went down.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

pq
Posts: 994
Joined: 12 Nov 2007, 11:41pm
Location: St Antonin Noble Val, France
Contact:

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby pq » 5 Jan 2020, 12:40pm

I haven't read the thread, but if your tyres inflates, you're fine. You just need to add sealant.

I remove the valve core and push it through with a syringe, pump the tyre up without the core, let it down, put the core in, then pump it up again.

You have a problem if you can't pump the tyre up at all - then you need a method for pushing a lot of air in suddenly. You can use a special pump or an air compressor. Don't use CO2 after you've put sealant in as that ruins the sealant. It's best if you can do that without the valve core as the air will enter the tyre more quickly.
One link to your website is enough. G

dim
Posts: 327
Joined: 12 May 2019, 5:59pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby dim » 5 Jan 2020, 12:46pm

Brucey wrote:CO2 also turns the inside of the tyre slightly acidic; some sealants rely on being alkaline to stay fluid, so CO2 isn't good with those either, in the long run. I don't think this takes effect immediately though, I think it can take at least hours (if not days) to turn the sealant bad.

FWIW the weather was not bad (between 5 and 10 degrees C) and the tyre itself didn't seem especially cold to the touch. If temperature was responsible for the sealant not working, I'd say it wasn't suitable for use in the UK.

golden rule.... always carry a spare innertube if you use tubeless ... had he done that, he would have been back on the road in 5 minutes


maybe. It depends how tight the tyre is on the rim. Some tubeless tyres on some rims are virtually impossible to remove quickly by the roadside because they are so tight on the rim. You still have the sealant to deal with too; although he and his bike were already covered in the stuff (it, er, comes out if it doesn't seal a hole.... :roll: ) there was still more to come. You also have the valve stem to remove. IME if the nut on a tubeless valve is tight enough to seal properly (valve stems vary), the stem often can't be removed without using a pair of pliers on the nut. Which he didn't have. I couldn't move the nut with my fingers, else he could have fitted a tube (mine or his). As it was there was no point in trying to unseat the tyre, so we didn't find out if it was super-tight or not. I suspect it was pretty tight, else it might have unseated already, when the tyre went down.

cheers


some tubeless tyres are defiately a lot harder to fit and remove on any tubeless rims, Hutchison being one of them.

I read a post on a forum where a guy could not fit a tubeless tyre, so he popped it into his tumble drier for 20 minutes to heat it up ... it did fit easy after that :roll:

Of the tubeless tyres that I've used, Continental GP5000 TL are by far the easiest to fit on my rims (HED Belgium Plus) Yet, some people complain that they find these tyres extremely hard to fit on other makes of rims ....

from what I understand, this year they will finalize the new tubeless rims and tyres standards:

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/257647-one-step-closer-road-tubeless-standard-and-why-matters-you

I think in future, tubeless tyres will definately be more widely used ... High mileage cyclists like Mike Lane and Steve Abraham use tubeless

dim
Posts: 327
Joined: 12 May 2019, 5:59pm

Re: Help please, first time fitting tubeless.

Postby dim » 5 Jan 2020, 12:54pm

pq wrote:I haven't read the thread, but if your tyres inflates, you're fine. You just need to add sealant.

I remove the valve core and push it through with a syringe, pump the tyre up without the core, let it down, put the core in, then pump it up again.

You have a problem if you can't pump the tyre up at all - then you need a method for pushing a lot of air in suddenly. You can use a special pump or an air compressor. Don't use CO2 after you've put sealant in as that ruins the sealant. It's best if you can do that without the valve core as the air will enter the tyre more quickly.


no need to pump the tyre up without the valve core, then deflate and pump it up again ... just add the sealant, turn the valve to the 12 O'clock position and pump it up with a track pump ... it will/should seat

if that does not work, you may need Co2 or a compressor or an airshot or similar, but I've never need to use those on the tyres that I've used