New 9 speed "STI" things

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mattsccm
Posts: 2922
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby mattsccm » 26 Jan 2020, 9:34am

Interesting. I make no comment about quality . Description of shift sounds a bit like SRAM Double tap. Might suit some one keeping 9 speed going.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SENSAH-STI-2 ... %3D1110002

MikeF
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Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby MikeF » 26 Jan 2020, 10:18am

mattsccm wrote:Interesting. I make no comment about quality . Description of shift sounds a bit like SRAM Double tap. Might suit some one keeping 9 speed going.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SENSAH-STI-2 ... %3D1110002

From China
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 26 Jan 2020, 10:49am

"From China" means absolutely nothing, they certainly can make some quite low quality stuff, but they also make virtually all the world's electronic consumer goods and have an increasingly succesful space programme. I wouldn't buy these right now, but will watch with interest to see how other's find them over the next couple of years. I am awaiting delivery of a £30 Chinese brand IXF crankset, but the brand and model have been around for a few years with most reliable reviews, e.g. on MTBR etc., saying that while not perfectly finished they are fair value and don't fall apart in use.

mattsccm
Posts: 2922
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby mattsccm » 26 Jan 2020, 1:12pm

I buy all my low lever stuff from there or wherever it actually comes from. I have no doubt that in years to come China will be the next Japan in manufacturing.

drossall
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Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby drossall » 27 Jan 2020, 12:08am

There must be some demand for continuing 9-speed stuff. Microshift are a bit better established as another source.

I for one have not got beyond 9 yet, and am happy on less. I've got a few spare bits laid by to keep my 9-speeds going.

niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 27 Jan 2020, 12:44pm

drossall wrote:There must be some demand for continuing 9-speed stuff. Microshift are a bit better established as another source.

I for one have not got beyond 9 yet, and am happy on less. I've got a few spare bits laid by to keep my 9-speeds going.

I got as far as 9 speed then went back to 8, much more durable IMO.

niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 12 Feb 2020, 12:10pm

I am building a bike and wanting to fit 2x8 gearing. I looked at the options and came to the following conclusions:

The 2x8 Sensah https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SENSAH-Road- ... 0005.m1851 do look to have good ergonomics, but they are just too new and unproven, plus officially you should be paying VAT on them as they are coming from outside the EU, which puts the price up to £52.93.

Microshift R8 2x8 are good value on Amazon at £40 with free delivery https://www.amazon.co.uk/MicroNew-Contr ... 796&sr=8-8 however I don't like them particuclarly. I have previously used a Versa VRS11 shifter, which is basically a rebranded Microshift with modified internals to shift an Alfine 11 hub, and found that the longer shifting lever was too long and needed to be moved so far that I had to rotate my hand around the hood as I shifted to a lower gear. I have fairly small hands so others with average size hands may well find them OK in this respect. Microshift 2x9 and 3x9 can be found from around £50 on eBay or Amazon.

I finally settled on a set of NOS Shimano ST2300 on eBay for £50 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-ST23 ... 2749.l2649 and ordered them. They are not that popular due to both the external gear cable (which the Microshifts also have) and short stubby release lever that is pretty much impossible to reach from the drops (the Microshift release lever is only marginally better in this respect), but I don't mind the external gear cables, am not planning to use a bar bag with this bike and I spend so little time in the drops it is not worth taking into consideration. I even like the gear indicator on these.

Brucey
Posts: 37276
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby Brucey » 12 Feb 2020, 12:38pm

I would question the virtue of having STIs of any sort on a touring bike, especially a budget touring bike with budget STIs. IME such devices are unlikely to be as reliable as 'proper ones' are, they may not be replaceable (with similar spares bought individually in the event of breakage or crash damage) and they certainly won't be repairable per se. In addition there is usually a constraint concerning brake lever cable pull; essentially you are restricted to whatever brakes are compatible with this week's cable pull, which can be very annoying.

So left to my own devices on a touring bike I'd always choose separate brake levers and shifters, with the shifters positioned such that you can access them quickly/easily when you need to, i.e. when you are climbing. At any other time, on a touring bike, there is arguably no real necessity for being able to access the shifters in a split second. [NB This approach allows you to very easily use V brakes or cable discs using V-brake lever pull, which some folk prefer on a touring bike.]

If you simply must have 2x8 STI shifters, then there is arguably no need to look past a used set of shimano ones from the 1990s; IME the internals are built not to fail. Having been inside quite a few later STI shifters I am quite strongly of a view that the internals have usually been made cheaper and less well. Good 2x8 shifters from the 1990s include Ultegra, 105, RSX etc. You can pick up a good used set for buttons, more or less, certainly a lot less than new shifters of inferior/unknown quality.

Another plus point is that older STIs have a brake cable pull which works OK with a wider range of brakes; most Cantis, most DPs, centre pulls, drum brakes can work OK with them, which is a choice which a 'more current' STI is unlikely to afford you.

BTW the long lever swing in Versa shifters is attributable to the cable pull. In Alfine/Nexus hubs it is about 5mm per click, whereas in many shimano derailleur systems it is between 2.5 and 3.2mm. Thus if you re-engineer a set of shifters (which were originally designed for a shimano derailleur system) with about twice the cable pull per click, and don't alter the size of the take up spool, you can expect to have to swing the shift lever about twice as far per shift, simple as that. I wouldn't expect the same shifter architecture to have a long lever throw when the pull per click is a lot less.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 12 Feb 2020, 1:45pm

Brucey wrote:I would question the virtue of having STIs of any sort on a touring bike, especially a budget touring bike with budget STIs. IME such devices are unlikely to be as reliable as 'proper ones' are, they may not be replaceable (with similar spares bought individually in the event of breakage or crash damage) and they certainly won't be repairable per se. In addition there is usually a constraint concerning brake lever cable pull; essentially you are restricted to whatever brakes are compatible with this week's cable pull, which can be very annoying.

So left to my own devices on a touring bike I'd always choose separate brake levers and shifters, with the shifters positioned such that you can access them quickly/easily when you need to, i.e. when you are climbing. At any other time, on a touring bike, there is arguably no real necessity for being able to access the shifters in a split second. [NB This approach allows you to very easily use V brakes or cable discs using V-brake lever pull, which some folk prefer on a touring bike.]


I don't disagree with any of that, but this is for a road bike (actually based around a cyclocross frame to allow decent size tyres) for Sunday rides etc. Brakes will be Shimano 90mm v-brakes. My touring bike build is also in progress based on a Salsa Marrakesh and Alfine 11 hub. TRP Spyre brakes have already been bought for that build, to be paired with Tektro RL340s, which is a tried and tested combination that I know will work superbly. I bought the Versa VRS11 brifters second hand for the previous bike using the Alfine 11, and later sold them on without much loss as I didn't get on with them for the reason already stated. I am still thinking about shifter options for the Marrakesh; I only know of a choice between the Jtek bar end or the Shimano flat bar shifter somehow mounted on a drop bar*, but other suggestions would be most welcome.

*I mounted a trigger shifter for a SRAM P5 hub on an accessory bar on my drop bar e-bike build, which works surprisingly well positioned within easy reach of my right thumb when on the hoods.

Brucey wrote:If you simply must have 2x8 STI shifters, then there is arguably no need to look past a used set of shimano ones from the 1990s; IME the internals are built not to fail. Having been inside quite a few later STI shifters I am quite strongly of a view that the internals have usually been made cheaper and less well. Good 2x8 shifters from the 1990s include Ultegra, 105, RSX etc. You can pick up a good used set for buttons, more or less, certainly a lot less than new shifters of inferior/unknown quality.

Another plus point is that older STIs have a brake cable pull which works OK with a wider range of brakes; most Cantis, most DPs, centre pulls, drum brakes can work OK with them, which is a choice which a 'more current' STI is unlikely to afford you.


Hmm, thanks Bruce, I was not aware of the deterioration of quality in Shimano STIs. Brake cable pull may deduced to some extent through the compatibility charts so I will have a browse through them, I could just send the ST2300s back for a refund.

Brucey wrote:BTW the long lever swing in Versa shifters is attributable to the cable pull. In Alfine/Nexus hubs it is about 5mm per click, whereas in many shimano derailleur systems it is between 2.5 and 3.2mm. Thus if you re-engineer a set of shifters (which were originally designed for a shimano derailleur system) with about twice the cable pull per click, and don't alter the size of the take up spool, you can expect to have to swing the shift lever about twice as far per shift, simple as that. I wouldn't expect the same shifter architecture to have a long lever throw when the pull per click is a lot less.

cheers

Another thing I was not aware of. I did like the Versa levers in most other respects, the release lever is very positive, if a bit loud, and they did work fine with the 90mm v-brakes, but I am not so sure about the durability of Microshift brifters.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby Brucey » 12 Feb 2020, 2:07pm

with 90mm arm V brakes you need either V brake pull in the levers or NSSLR brake cable pull. I would need to check this but I have a feeling that ST-2300 may be 'old' (non NSSLR) cable pull. ST-2400 is NSSLR cable pull and would be a better choice for use with mini-Vs.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

mcshroom
Posts: 51
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 12:00am

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby mcshroom » 12 Feb 2020, 2:52pm

They are the shorter pull.

My Dawes Horizon came fitted with 2300 series shifters. I replaced the front brake with a tektro RX5 (85mm?) mini-v a couple years ago and they worked ok, but you really didn't have much pad clearance. Before that I'd tried an RX6 (90mm) which I don't actually remember being closer, but the gap for either wasn't big anyway. They worked ok until the spring broke.

I decided not to try messing with the rear on my bike so left the Oryx canti which had significantly more clearance.

When I switched to R2030 levers (mainly to open up space for a bar bag) there was a little more clearance to play with, but they still needed to be kept pretty close to the rim. I'm not sure whether a mini-v on the rear might need setting up even closer than the front? I'd be worried about the longer cable run, but compressionless housing may help with the cable losses I suppose.

That bike's frame is cracked and I'm thinking of replacing it. If I use STIs and mini-vs on it's replacement, I'd be temped to use something like a Shimano SM-CB90 inline QR to help get the wheel in and out. I gave up with adjusting the noodle for opening the RX5, and ended up deflating the tyre every time I wanted to remove the wheel.

thatsnotmyname
Posts: 335
Joined: 23 Jan 2020, 10:23am

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby thatsnotmyname » 12 Feb 2020, 3:03pm

mattsccm wrote:Interesting. I make no comment about quality . Description of shift sounds a bit like SRAM Double tap. Might suit some one keeping 9 speed going.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SENSAH-STI-2 ... %3D1110002


Also available for 8s and 11s setups, although I can't seem to find any 10s option. There are also bundles available with what appear to be SRAM-style mechs, again for attractive prices.

Being 'from China' - as someone rather puzzlingly pointed out earlier - is likely to be of no consequence whatsoever.

niggle
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Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 12 Feb 2020, 5:17pm

My first experience with 90mm v-brakes was with Campag ergos, with which I found them to work fine, and the quick release button on the levers made wheel removal no issue, but yes they did need to run close to the rim and I did need to keep on top of the adjustment. They seemed just the same with the Versa levers, but without the easy wheel removal. In fact for that second build the rear was a Tektro 926AL 80mm v-brake and it felt/performed very much the same as the Shimano 90mm ones, even though theoretically it shouldn't have. My suspicion is that the u-channel design of the Shimano brakes is significantly stiffer than the 926AL.

I like v-brakes, I find them generally easy to set up and maintain, unlike cantis, and to offer better all weather braking than all other types of rim brakes. However I have never paired them up with Shimano STIs so am paying close attention to the experience and advice shared on this thread, thanks all.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby pwa » 12 Feb 2020, 5:33pm

To be honest this alternative to Shimano doesn't have to be all that brilliant to compete with Sora for reliability. I have a Sora left lever in my garage that has a paddle that no longer springs back into position after a shift to a larger ring. It's had an ocean of WD40 and other oily lube so without the sort of disassembly I don't do it is staying faulty. And it has done less than a thousand miles. That's all this Chinese stuff has to beat. These things don't last long so if anyone can make them cheaper that has to be a good thing.

slowster
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Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby slowster » 12 Feb 2020, 5:58pm

niggle wrote:My touring bike build is also in progress based on a Salsa Marrakesh

I presume you've already done your research and are satisfied with the rear rack options. The Salsa rack which is compatible with the Alternator dropouts is quite expensive, and the shroud around the Alternator pivot point bolt hole makes it necessary to have ~15mm of spacers between the rack and the bolt hole (compared with the standard 5mm spacer supplied for use in that position with most Tubus racks). On the plus side it's an M6 bolt rather than M5, and Salsa presumably have made sure that the configuration will be strong enough for loaded touring, since the frame, dropouts, rack and rack fittings/spacers are all their own proprietary parts.

(Apologies to the OP for the thread diversion.)