New 9 speed "STI" things

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niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 13 Feb 2020, 1:06am

slowster wrote:
niggle wrote:My touring bike build is also in progress based on a Salsa Marrakesh

I presume you've already done your research and are satisfied with the rear rack options. The Salsa rack which is compatible with the Alternator dropouts is quite expensive, and the shroud around the Alternator pivot point bolt hole makes it necessary to have ~15mm of spacers between the rack and the bolt hole (compared with the standard 5mm spacer supplied for use in that position with most Tubus racks). On the plus side it's an M6 bolt rather than M5, and Salsa presumably have made sure that the configuration will be strong enough for loaded touring, since the frame, dropouts, rack and rack fittings/spacers are all their own proprietary parts.

(Apologies to the OP for the thread diversion.)

Yes I am thinking a Tubus Logo Classic 26" will be the best option, giving the lowest position for the pannier mounting rails (of the Tubus options at least) at 305mm above the mounting point (I do have a Cargo Classic 26" which has rails 362mm above the mounting point, but I will be very happy to put that on my ebike commuter utility bike as the current rack on that is not great). A long 12.9 grade M6 bolt with spacer sleeve cut from suitable tubing should suffice, I just have to check that the width between the lower mounting points will still be within the maximum 180mm stated by Tubus: https://www.tubus.com/fileadmin/user_up ... 1.0_01.pdf

niggle
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Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 13 Feb 2020, 1:12am

Brucey wrote:with 90mm arm V brakes you need either V brake pull in the levers or NSSLR brake cable pull. I would need to check this but I have a feeling that ST-2300 may be 'old' (non NSSLR) cable pull. ST-2400 is NSSLR cable pull and would be a better choice for use with mini-Vs.

cheers

Thanks Brucey, I don't suppose you happen to know how ST-R2000 STIs compare with ST-2400 re brake cable pull?

Brucey
Posts: 37433
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby Brucey » 13 Feb 2020, 1:37am

niggle wrote:
Brucey wrote:with 90mm arm V brakes you need either V brake pull in the levers or NSSLR brake cable pull. I would need to check this but I have a feeling that ST-2300 may be 'old' (non NSSLR) cable pull. ST-2400 is NSSLR cable pull and would be a better choice for use with mini-Vs.

cheers

Thanks Brucey, I don't suppose you happen to know how ST-R2000 STIs compare with ST-2400 re brake cable pull?


I think the cable pull on all later model STIs (including ST-R2000) is NSSLR.

As of 2019 the following models are listed as NSSLR type brake pull

ST-R9100 ST-R9150 ST-R9160 ST-9070 ST-9071 ST-9001 ST-9000 ST-R8000 ST-R8050 ST-R8060 ST-6870 ST-6871 ST-6800 ST-6770 ST-6700 ST-5800 ST-R7000 ST-5700 ST-4700 ST-4600 ST-R3000 ST-3500 ST-R2000 ST-2400 ST-R460 ST-R353 ST-R350 BL-TT79
and only

ST-A070 ST-A073
are both current and use the older brake cable pull suitable for original type DP calipers.

listings for 2012 show the following NSSLR levers

ST-7970 ST-7900 ST-6700 ST-5700 ST-4600 BL-TT79 BL-4600 BL-R780

and the following with shorter cable pull for original DP calipers

BL-TT78 ST-3400 ST-2300 ST-R221

NSSLR was new for 2008, in Dura-Ace only to start with. Thereafter new model STIs in groupsets nearly all use NSSLR cable pull. AFAICT the only 'groupset' (i.e. not non-series) STI model introduced after 2008 (i.e. 2009 or later) with the old brake cable pull is ST-2300.

The quickest way of checking the introduction of groupset parts is to look at this page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimano

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brucey
Posts: 37433
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby Brucey » 13 Feb 2020, 10:28am

FWIW the durability of microshift STI shifters is still questionable, but they can last reasonably well; only yesterday I saw a versa-equipped bike where the RH lever hood was completely worn out (through shifting I'd imagine, from the pattern of wear), which wouldn't have happened if the shifters were bound to fail prematurely.

As myself and others have noted upthread, the cheaper shimano ones have not always been that good in recent times, so there may not be that much to choose between them in terms of outright quality. I'd still fancy my chances of getting a pair of hoods or a spare lever for a shimano unit over a microshift though, five years down the line.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

slowster
Posts: 1198
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby slowster » 13 Feb 2020, 10:47am

niggle wrote:Yes I am thinking a Tubus Logo Classic 26" will be the best option, giving the lowest position for the pannier mounting rails (of the Tubus options at least) at 305mm above the mounting point (I do have a Cargo Classic 26" which has rails 362mm above the mounting point, but I will be very happy to put that on my ebike commuter utility bike as the current rack on that is not great). A long 12.9 grade M6 bolt with spacer sleeve cut from suitable tubing should suffice, I just have to check that the width between the lower mounting points will still be within the maximum 180mm stated by Tubus: https://www.tubus.com/fileadmin/user_up ... 1.0_01.pdf

A rack for 26" size wheels is likely to be the best option with Alternator dropouts (better even than Salsa's Alternator rack in my opinion). Even if you find that the Alternator dropouts will result in Tubus' stated maximum distance between the lower mounting points being exceeded, that is not a problem. All you need do is cold set the rack to widen the distance. I did this with a Tubus cromoly steel rack by laying the rack side down on the floor, putting a foot over the lower part of the rack next to the floor, and gently pulling the other side of the rack upwards. All it took was two or three gradual pulls to get just the spacing I wanted. I don't know if the stainless steel Tubus racks can similarly be cold set. In an ideal world the Evo versions of the Tubus racks would have lower mounting protrusions which fitted inside the shrouded Alternator dropouts, but I think that they are too large for that.

With regard to the bolts and spacers, Salsa sell the fittings separately from the rack, e.g. Bikemonger have them in stock and I guess any Salsa dealer should be able to supply them, and you might find it simpler just to use them, given that you will need different length bolts for both drive and non-drive sides, and moreover the bolt on the non-drive side has to be a fairly exact length (if it protrudes more than 1mm or 2mm beyond the disc mount adapter it will touch the brake disc).

niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 13 Feb 2020, 12:12pm

slowster wrote:A rack for 26" size wheels is likely to be the best option with Alternator dropouts (better even than Salsa's Alternator rack in my opinion). Even if you find that the Alternator dropouts will result in Tubus' stated maximum distance between the lower mounting points being exceeded, that is not a problem. All you need do is cold set the rack to widen the distance. I did this with a Tubus cromoly steel rack by laying the rack side down on the floor, putting a foot over the lower part of the rack next to the floor, and gently pulling the other side of the rack upwards. All it took was two or three gradual pulls to get just the spacing I wanted. I don't know if the stainless steel Tubus racks can similarly be cold set. In an ideal world the Evo versions of the Tubus racks would have lower mounting protrusions which fitted inside the shrouded Alternator dropouts, but I think that they are too large for that.

With regard to the bolts and spacers, Salsa sell the fittings separately from the rack, e.g. Bikemonger have them in stock and I guess any Salsa dealer should be able to supply them, and you might find it simpler just to use them, given that you will need different length bolts for both drive and non-drive sides, and moreover the bolt on the non-drive side has to be a fairly exact length (if it protrudes more than 1mm or 2mm beyond the disc mount adapter it will touch the brake disc).

Turns out it is 181mm across the frame, so not likely to be a problem. The Salsa kit is a bit over priced for what it is IMO plus I would rather use hex head screws inserted from the inside if I can, of which I have some in stainless in a few different lengths and hex heads have a reasonably low profile. The thickness of the alternator dropout and frame is 24mm, so a 30mm screw should be about right. On the outside I think I could screw on a stud connector nut, e.g. one of these 18mm ones cut to 12mm (the recess is a shade over 11mm deep): https://www.accu.co.uk/en/hexagonal-stu ... HTBN-M6-A2 then the rack eyelets can be fastened down on to the protruding screws with nyloc nuts.

slowster
Posts: 1198
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby slowster » 13 Feb 2020, 1:42pm

niggle wrote:The Salsa kit is a bit over priced for what it is IMO plus I would rather use hex head screws inserted from the inside if I can, of which I have some in stainless in a few different lengths and hex heads have a reasonably low profile. The thickness of the alternator dropout and frame is 24mm, so a 30mm screw should be about right. On the outside I think I could screw on a stud connector nut, e.g. one of these 18mm ones cut to 12mm (the recess is a shade over 11mm deep): https://www.accu.co.uk/en/hexagonal-stu ... HTBN-M6-A2 then the rack eyelets can be fastened down on to the protruding screws with nyloc nuts.

I like the idea of the stud connector nut, and like you I prefer to screw the bolts for racks from the inside face of the dropout and secure the stud on the outside with a nut. However, on the non-drive side the gap between the disc and the disc mount adapter is likely to be only ~3mm (at least that is what the distance is with an Avid adaptor mount and a 160mm disc).

Are you sure about using stainless bolts given the greater stress that the bolts will be under compared with when a rack is bolted directly to the frame (or with only a standard 5mm Tubus spacer)? I think the bolts Salsa supply for use with their Alternator dropouts and for fitting the Alternator rack are 12.9 grade.

Whatever bolts you use, I would be inclined to take a spare for both drive and non-drive side with me when on tour. If a bolt sheared in the middle of nowhere it could be a major problem, possibly especially so if it sheared where the stud connector nut met the dropout (which I think would be the most likely place).

niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 13 Feb 2020, 4:47pm

slowster wrote:
niggle wrote:The Salsa kit is a bit over priced for what it is IMO plus I would rather use hex head screws inserted from the inside if I can, of which I have some in stainless in a few different lengths and hex heads have a reasonably low profile. The thickness of the alternator dropout and frame is 24mm, so a 30mm screw should be about right. On the outside I think I could screw on a stud connector nut, e.g. one of these 18mm ones cut to 12mm (the recess is a shade over 11mm deep): https://www.accu.co.uk/en/hexagonal-stu ... HTBN-M6-A2 then the rack eyelets can be fastened down on to the protruding screws with nyloc nuts.

I like the idea of the stud connector nut, and like you I prefer to screw the bolts for racks from the inside face of the dropout and secure the stud on the outside with a nut. However, on the non-drive side the gap between the disc and the disc mount adapter is likely to be only ~3mm (at least that is what the distance is with an Avid adaptor mount and a 160mm disc).

Are you sure about using stainless bolts given the greater stress that the bolts will be under compared with when a rack is bolted directly to the frame (or with only a standard 5mm Tubus spacer)? I think the bolts Salsa supply for use with their Alternator dropouts and for fitting the Alternator rack are 12.9 grade.

Whatever bolts you use, I would be inclined to take a spare for both drive and non-drive side with me when on tour. If a bolt sheared in the middle of nowhere it could be a major problem, possibly especially so if it sheared where the stud connector nut met the dropout (which I think would be the most likely place).

Yes a 12.9 screw would be the absolute safest bet, but liable to unsightly corrosion and possible seizure. I think the stud connector nut tightened square against the frame will give the screw much better support than an un-threaded spacer, and it is M6 after all. Right now the screw through the frame and dropout on the non drive side protrudes around 4mm beyond the nut retaining it, but with a screw inserted from the inside you eliminate the nut, which is thicker than the head of a hex head screw to start with let alone the extra 4mm of screw protruding inward as it is now. BTW do we need to start a Salsa Marrakesh rear rack mounting thread?

Polkey
Posts: 12
Joined: 12 Jan 2019, 11:31pm

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby Polkey » 13 Feb 2020, 5:12pm

Brucey wrote:FWIW the durability of microshift STI shifters is still questionable
cheers

FWIW I've been using Microshift Bona shifters since 2011, never had a problem with them and they'll last for many years to come I'm thinking

niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 13 Feb 2020, 5:28pm

For slowster, Marrakesh current screw with inboard nut and thread on alternator dropout, with M6 hex head screw to compare:

Image

slowster
Posts: 1198
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby slowster » 13 Feb 2020, 5:33pm

niggle wrote:Right now the screw through the frame and dropout on the non drive side protrudes around 4mm beyond the nut retaining it

But that is presumably without the disc caliper mount adaptor installed? See the diagram on page 1 of the Alternator 2.0 Instructions.

niggle wrote:BTW do we need to start a Salsa Marrakesh rear rack mounting thread?

Other than my comment above, there isn't anything more I would add, and clearly you have weighed up the various options and are making informed choices. (Although feel free to reply or PM me if you feel the need - I only posted because, as you have by now probably deduced, I have a bike with Alternator dropouts and a Tubus rack, and had to get to grips with these issues when fitting them).

Brucey
Posts: 37433
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby Brucey » 13 Feb 2020, 5:41pm

FWIW you can buy stainless connector nuts in toolstation, in M5 or M6 threads plus others.

I agree that if used correctly, they ought to offer much better support than (say) an aluminium spacer of some kind.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

niggle
Posts: 3413
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 13 Feb 2020, 5:43pm

slowster wrote:
niggle wrote:Right now the screw through the frame and dropout on the non drive side protrudes around 4mm beyond the nut retaining it

But that is presumably without the disc caliper mount adaptor installed? See the diagram on page 1 of the Alternator 2.0 Instructions.

niggle wrote:BTW do we need to start a Salsa Marrakesh rear rack mounting thread?

Other than my comment above, there isn't anything more I would add, and clearly you have weighed up the various options and are making informed choices. (Although feel free to reply or PM me if you feel the need - I only posted because, as you have by now probably deduced, I have a bike with Alternator dropouts and a Tubus rack, and had to get to grips with these issues when fitting them).

No you are right, I had not taken account of the brake adapter being on the end of that screw and there will not be enough clearance for anything much behind that, hmm... I still think the stud coupler nut idea has some mileage in it, the brake adapter is threaded of course so with a long stud screwed into it and the stud coupler screwed down onto the outside it should still be better than the Salsa kit IMO.

slowster
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Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby slowster » 13 Feb 2020, 6:13pm

niggle wrote:No you are right, I had not taken account of the brake adapter being on the end of that screw and there will not be enough clearance for anything much behind that, hmm... I still think the stud coupler nut idea has some mileage in it, the brake adapter is threaded of course so with a long stud screwed into it and the stud coupler screwed down onto the outside it should still be better than the Salsa kit IMO.

The stud coupler does seem a much better idea, and I think I might well try it myself (and would be interested to see what solution you finally arrive at).

niggle wrote:On the outside I think I could screw on a stud connector nut, e.g. one of these 18mm ones cut to 12mm (the recess is a shade over 11mm deep)

I think you might need to leave the nut uncut in order to have sufficient exposed flats for a spanner to grip, i.e. I don't think you would be able to get a spanner in the recess.

niggle
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Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: New 9 speed "STI" things

Postby niggle » 13 Feb 2020, 8:02pm

slowster wrote:
niggle wrote:On the outside I think I could screw on a stud connector nut, e.g. one of these 18mm ones cut to 12mm (the recess is a shade over 11mm deep)

I think you might need to leave the nut uncut in order to have sufficient exposed flats for a spanner to grip, i.e. I don't think you would be able to get a spanner in the recess.

Yes I was thinking about the need to get a spanner on it, but 18mm is too long I think, probably 13-14mm would suffice as I would put a washer between it and the frame 3-4mm is enough for a spanner or socket to get hold of I think.