SunTour 'New Winner' freewheel; state of the art in 1978

[fastpedaller]

All this talk of Regina, Sun Tour quality reminded me of the Regina CX, with its splined remover - now that was a nice freewheel!

[Brucey]

I've still got a tool for taking apart Suntour (?) freewheels. Can't remember now exactly how it works. This one.



Also on Sheldon, near the bottom.

that is indeed the correct spanner tool for New Winner freewheel bearing adjustment; in fact it has no other use. One end of the spanner has pegs that engage with the lockring and the other end has pegs which engage with the adjusting cone. The adjusting cone end is pretty much a waste of time; because of the tab washer between the cone and locknut you should never need to apply any real force to the adjusting cone; it can simply be moved using a small screwdriver, once the lockring is slackened. In point of fact the other end is not that great either, mainly because the notches in the lockring are so shallow, the spanner pegs can very easily slip out of them.

BTW the thread on the lockring and cone is a standard RH thread; the 'unscrew' direction is marked on the lockring with an arrow facing ACW.

cheers

[Brucey]

All this talk of Regina, Sun Tour quality reminded me of the Regina CX, with its splined remover - now that was a nice freewheel!

yep, although rumour has it that most (all?) the Regina freewheels with the small splined remover were actually made by Maillard. They were certainly 'co-marketing' some products for a long time. You can find pictures of older 'Atom' freewheels with 'made in italy' writ upon them...



but apart from the lockring, the freewheel is otherwise indistinguishable from a Maillard Atom.

[edit; correspondingly the screw-on sprocket system used in the Regina Extra etc was also used in some older Maillard-branded freewheels.]

cheers

[Brucey]

Another popular freewheel in the 1970s was the Maillard 'Normandy' model.



A point by point riposte to the above might read

1) Yeah, but your pawls are kind of long and flexy; furthermore they are designed to engage one at a time (presumably for low backlash), not both together (180 degree opposed pawls, working on an odd-toothed ratchet ring) . Breakages were not uncommon in Normandy freewheels.
2) Brass has a fatigue limit, unlike steel. Brass springs tend to break by fatigue; I have seen many broken brass springs in Normandy freewheels.
3)&4) Unbalanced? So are the loads. In practice the smaller ballraces in one side of freewheels make not a jot of difference to the operation of the thing; the most important thing is that the bearing adjustment is kept good and the water is kept out. Probably the bearings being set well apart (which they are not in the Normandy design) is a major advantage; having 2/5 sprockets overhanging the bearings is suboptimal by comparison.
5) The large tool was indeed easier to live with in a workshop. However when cycle touring, carrying the (large, heavy) remover added significantly to the toolkit weight.
6) The 'seal ring' was a neat idea but waterproof? Nah. It had the unintended consequence that overspray of chain lube was less likely to get into the freewheel bearings, so it was less easy to keep the bearings sweet, even if water and other crud was less likely to get into the thing.

The blurb mentions 'competition'. However this freewheel (which has sprockets very similar to the Atom 5s models I used to use) does not allow the fitment of competition-type gear ratios. The main issue is that the #4 sprocket can't be smaller than about 17T or something like that. In the 1950s maybe a 14-17-19-21-24 with a half-step chainset would be used in competition. But by the 1970s this wasn't the way it was done.

cheers

[Brucey]

I guess the Maillard 700 compact was their response to the 'New Winner'.



Like the New Winner, the largest sprocket that could be fitted to the third position was 21T; not altogether touring-friendly.

1982 Maillard brochure here
https://borgercompagnie.com/helicomatic/html/helicodocs/Maillard1982FreewheelCatalog.pdf

cheers

[Brucey]

A boxed Regina Extra sprocket kit (pre 1979, before they had a 7s option) looked like this:



Presumably BITD pro team mechanics would have a kit like this in the van.

The photo is from this page http://derbyking.com/Detail/?n=23
which mentions that the Regina sprockets do indeed fit some older Maillard Atom models. It also mentions that one place the Regina America model was not sold was in the USA.

cheers

[Brucey]

Some photos of the New Winner sprocket board





there are a few rogue sprockets in the photos above, but in the photo below it appears to be populated with only SunTour parts.


cheers

[Brucey]

I've just spent a little while looking at the available SunTour catalogues on the Disraeli Gears site and it is interesting to see how things developed in later years for SunTour, in relation to freewheels and indexing.

When the Winner Pro (WP) and Winner (WT) freewheels were introduced, they could (having both threads and splines in the middle of the body) use the same sprockets as the older 'New Winner' (NW) models, and the tooth profiles were described similarly. In the 1987 brochures we have index-compatible 'Accushift' parts for the first time and these are (of course) only going to work with some SunTour freewheels. Some WP / WT and alpha freewheels are listed as index compatible.

However by late 1989 (when the 1990 catalogue was published) indexing is now described as 'Accushift Plus' (AP) and is available on both freewheels and cassette hubs. AP sprockets in that catalogue have angled/faceted teeth and are (to my eyes) not wildly different from uniglide sprockets. They tout bushingless chains as being a new thing, and it probably was, for them (ten years after the Sedisport chain was introduced...). There is no sign of any WP freewheels and the AP WT/alpha models all have different model numbers.

The change from Accushift to Accushift Plus was profound, in that the 1990 catalogue was almost entirely filled with AP compatible parts. However in the top road groups, the same shift levers and the same RDs were used as in 1987, just with different sprockets and chain, and that was suddenly 'Accushift Plus' too.

At about that time I had some Superbe Pro index levers (switchable between 6s standard spacing, 7s compact spacing and non-index modes) and a Superbe Pro RD, amongst other things, and AFAICT the shift ratio was the same (later orphaned) shift ratio as was used in Dura-Ace 7400 equipment. ( I sometimes used a RD-7400 too, but didn't have any shimano DA index levers amongst my road equipment). I'd also started using 7s cassette hubs from shimano, with UG sprockets. I found that the indexing worked with the cassette hubs, and it also worked with my NW freewheels, provided I was careful with sprocket spacing and I used a modified tooth form on the SunTour sprockets. It certainly didn't work at all well if I used the standard NW sprockets, which (AFAICT) were the same as the first WP sprockets, in terms of tooth profile/spacing.

I guess my experience exactly mirrored that of SunTour themselves; 'Accushift' in its 1987 form was pretty much half baked, even with recommended and matched components. It of course hardly worked at all when bike manufacturers used random combinations of freewheel and chain together with the SunTour index levers and mechs. No wonder they felt they had to insist on Accushift Plus sprockets and chain, once they had them -which was too late.... By contrast shimano hadn't put the cart in front of the horse in the same way; their UG tooth form gave good shifting and predated widespread use of indexing by some years; most UG sprocket sets worked OK with indexing whether they were meant to originally or not.

That Accushift Plus worked as well or better than shimano UG-based indexing turned out to be largely academic; bike manufacturers had lost faith and shimano's HG shifting had moved the game on anyway.

cheers

[Brucey]

I finally dug out my homebrew-modified SunTour New Winner sprockets (except for the largest sprocket; for some reason I left that standard).

New Winner on the left, modified New Winner on the right.

Shimano Uniglide 7s on the left, Modified New Winner on the right

I found the modified SunTour sprockets shifted as well as UG ones. I also made subtle changes to the sprocket spacing to make the Shimano sprockets better suit the SunTour indexing or the SunTour sprockets better suit shimano indexing; it wasn't difficult to do.

The grinding operations to modify the SunTour sprockets are symmetrical and they entirely overwhelm any small chamfers that might have been on some of the sprockets to start with; this means that the splined 'A' fit sprockets become fully reversible and it no longer matters if the threaded sprockets started out life as 'T' or 'R' type; once modified it is difficult to distinguish between them.

cheers

[Brucey]

I find it hard to believe that I last used the modified freewheel (at all), well over 25 years ago; how time flies! In truth I only used this setup for racing etc for a few months in the late 1980s; it was no longer viable as a 'main racing bike' part for the simple reason that I could no longer buy new sprockets that fitted the New Winner freewheel bodies. So it was soon relegated to 'spare wheel' status and then 'spare freewheel for the tandem' status, and has been gathering dust ever since. In the meantime I rebuilt all my racing wheels around shimano freehubs.

I still feel cheesed off about the New Winner/Winner Pro transition; the Winner Pro freewheel body was built with screw threads as well as splines in the middle three positions. This meant it could be fitted with the Winner Pro/Winner/Alpha splined sprockets, or it could accept the older New Winner/Perfect threaded sprockets in those middle positions. Needless to say LBSs with New Winner sprocket boards soon sold their remaining stocks of threaded T,R sprockets which left New Winner users like me a bit stuck.

I could have bought replacement Winner Pro freewheel bodies, and maybe this would have been OK but I had six or seven New Winners on the go. When I'd bought them originally they had mostly come as Ultra 6 spaced freewheels which I then converted to Ultra 7s specification. The top sprockets cost a quid or two each or something, and the Ultra-6 freewheels (complete) varied from about £10 to about £15 each when I bought them. By the time Winner Pro came out the bodies were nearer £20 a go and the sprockets were three or four quid each. It would have cost me about £150 to change to WP throughout and not only was I reluctant to do this (almost on principle), but I didn't see it as a permanent solution; SunTour were being left behind in the shift quality wars, LBSs were not keeping their sprocket boards fully populated with WP sprockets, I was bored of breaking axles in screw-on hubs and I was thinking that freehubs were a better idea anyway.

I guess I was right; WP freewheels were first revised to make them Accushift compatible (sort of) and then they were dropped altogether (although the plain 'Winner' limped on in revised Accushift Plus form). All in the space of about three years. If I'd wanted to keep up with that I'd have driven myself berserk. [ I later tried an 'Accushift Plus' compatible freewheel; it was no better than UG to use and I didn't think it was any better than my homebrewed NW modification either. ]

Mind you, in shimanoland things were also subject to change; having (with heavy heart) invested in several sets of 7s UG-only type cassette hubs, shimano sprung 8s UG and 7s HG then 7s HGC and then 8s HG on us in short order. I could have driven myself berserk keeping up with that too, but I didn't; I more or less sidestepped it. For some years I used modified HG sprockets (which would then fit onto the UG freehub body ) and a threaded top UG sprocket to secure them. I quite liked wider rear hubs as they came along (I'd already settled on a non-standard 128mm oln for 7s before 130mm was a thing for road bikes), but I didn't see the need for eight sprockets, preferring a wheel with reduced dish instead. I still use 7s freehub bodies on several wheelsets; they can be fitted with all kinds of n-1 cassettes using modern spacing and chain.

Little did I know it then, but the brief period when I was using my modified 7s New Winner freewheel for racing turned out to be the period when I rode my fastest time trials. The modified sprockets may look as if they belong in a meat grinding machine but they didn't slow me down!

cheers

[pq]

I found that more interesting than I should have. As someone permanently dissatisfied with stock gearing, I've been fiddling around with blocks and then cassettes for a very long time.

I remember having a couple of Suntour New Winner 7s. Always seemed much better quality than anything else I could afford at the time, but mine always knocked which drove me mad. With the benefit of hindsight I'm sure the bearings just needed adjusting.

Most of my riding was done on Maillard Compact 6s and 7s. I'm not sure what models they were, but I acquired a shoebox full of sprockets and bodies so I could make up most combinations I needed. What's more they didn't knock, lasted ages and I never had the slightest trouble from any of them. It's true the finish wasn't as good as the Suntour, but was OK.

I also had a Regina Oro 6 speed 12 - 17 on a pair of racing wheels. I'd run out of money for anything decent and Whiskers had them cheap. It was hard to remove without mashing up the innards, and the system for changing the sprockets was completely insane, but left to its own devices it just never wore out. In fact it's still sitting on those same wheels and is as usable as ever.

I now only have 1 bike which uses a screw on block. I used to commute on it, but it now only does very short rides around the village, mostly to do the shopping. It's one of my old maillards - they really are indestructible, but of course by modern standards, the shifting is terrible.

[Brucey]

I'd say that you are right about the knocking; this invariably means the bearings need adjusting. It is (pretty much) only seen on freewheels which have two opposed pawls which are meant to both engage at the same time, and only when the bearings are a bit slack. Confusingly the noise often varies depending on which sprocket is being used (presumably because the loading on the pawls and bearings is different) and this can be a real red herring if you don't know what is going on.

If you wanted to improve the shifting on your old maillard block, I daresay you could, if you can be bothered to do the required grinding....?

BTW I recently found some prices in some old catalogues. IIRC my first New Winner (an Ultra 6) cost about twelve quid. However in 1987 they were about £25 a pop for a 7s model and by 1990 the 7s 'winner pro' model was nearly £35 a go. I was annoyed at the way SunTour had revised their designs to favour the retailer rather than the consumer and this alone was enough to make me want to 'jump ship' as it were. I also (rightly or wrongly) thought shimano's cassette hub system fundamentally had more going for it than SunTour's. But I won't say that the ever-increasing cost of SunTour stuff wasn't a factor too.

cheers

[pq]

Now you mention it, the knocking only happened with particular sprockets. Had I kept those blocks longer I might have got to the bottom of it, but having a whole box full of maillard stuff made them redundant.

No chance of me tinkering with the maillard on my shopping bike! Frankly if the frame didn't have vertical dropouts I wouldn't bother with gears at all, and I doubt it does more than 5 miles per week. I only use it because the weight of the shopping is easier carried by bike than by me, otherwise I'd just walk. Actually the maillard only has 4 sprockets - the rear wheel is an old tandem wheel which isn't dished and has had a load of spacers removed to fit a 126mm frame, so 4 is all that will fit. Or is it 5? I can't remember.

[Jamesh]

Really enjoyed that historical insight brucey I've so much to learn!

How about discussion on rd and FD, chainsets and BB, tyre and wheel construction, frame building and materials etc not just from Brucey but all those who have real expertise. Would be a great way to learn about bikes of yesterday especially for those if us who are self isolating.

Many thanks James

[touringben]

Hi all, bit of a newbie here!
Just wandering if anyone had any methods for servicing a new winner freewheel without the special Suntour tool?
I've been searching for one for ages but cant seem to get hold of one. My freewheel seems in reasonable condition but could do with a proper service, I certainly don't want to replace it with any of the modern freewheels currently available!