Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

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redbedlington
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Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby redbedlington » 16 Feb 2020, 12:36pm

I am touring through France in the summer and am wondering about charging devices (phone, Kindle & Garmin) as I go. Condor are recommending fitting the Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub which chargse a battery pack and I wonder whether anyone has used this and how good it was. I am camping so don't expect to be able to plug my own battery pack into mains electricity overnight (such as I might if I stayed in a hotel).

Thoughts please.

Jdsk
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby Jdsk » 16 Feb 2020, 2:36pm

There's a lot on this in the archives.

I've had a PV-8 hub dynamo charging devices on a couple of long tours. Here's what I didn't know when I set off:
1 My Garmin Edge 1000 isn't happy charging directly off the dynamo. (There are different experiences with different models in the archives.)
2 But works fine with a USB battery pack in between.
3 Both of my B + M headlamps with built-in USB charging would fail.

If I were starting again I wouldn't charge off the dynamo and would carry a second USB battery pack etc. But all of our PV-8 dynamos have worked very well at powering lights, and I'd happily buy more.

Jonathan

Norman H
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby Norman H » 16 Feb 2020, 3:28pm

The Schmidt SON Delux wont charge a battery pack direct. The alternating current output of the dynamo needs to be rectified and smoothed, and the voltage output stabilised at the correct voltage for charging. For this you need some sort of dynamo powered charger or a dynamo powered light that incorporates a charger. There are numerous ones to choose from and they are mostly based around USB charging, although some can have variable voltage output.

Its a rapidly developing market and prices can vary widely and so can the efficiencies of the devices. Price isn't necessarily a guide to efficiency. No doubt Condor will have their own particular recommendations.

Here's a comparatively recent review of some, although by no means all, of the available options.

https://www.cyclingabout.com/best-dynamo-usb-chargers-bicycle-touring-bikepacking/

willem jongman
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby willem jongman » 16 Feb 2020, 3:54pm

I have a SON 28 hub but I have chosen to reduce consumption. I don't take a tablet, my phone is off most of the day, and my Garmin is a frugal Etrex 30 that lasts 4-6 days on a set of rechargeable batteries. All I do is take a couple of spare AAs for the Garmin, and a small and light battery pack to avoid having to leave the phone in the toilet building.
Last edited by willem jongman on 17 Feb 2020, 8:13am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tigerbiten
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby Tigerbiten » 16 Feb 2020, 4:14pm

It all depends on how much you want to keep charged up and how long you cycle per day.
It also depends if you want to carry a spare cache battery that you can occasionally fully charge up to make up any power deficit.

Just a Garmin, Kindle and occasional phone it's probably ok, I can go weeks without a top up with that setup.
From experience adding a full time phone and/or a tablet and it can be very iffy with just a hub dynamo setup.

Luck ......... :D

Jdsk
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby Jdsk » 16 Feb 2020, 4:28pm

Tigerbiten wrote:Just a Garmin, Kindle and occasional phone it's probably ok, I can go weeks without a top up with that setup.
From experience adding a full time phone and/or a tablet and it can be very iffy with just a hub dynamo setup.

Which rectifier/ controller are you using, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

Samuel D
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby Samuel D » 16 Feb 2020, 7:12pm

In a 700C wheel, the SONdelux is fine for lights unless you expect to ride at very slow speeds, but it wouldn’t be my choice for charging devices while touring. The SON 28 would be better for that because it delivers more power at modest speeds. (Builds a stronger wheel too, because the flanges are more widely spaced.) See here and here for more info.

As already mentioned, you need a device between the dynamo hub and the USB device you wish to charge. Examples include the Busch & Muller USB-WERK with integrated cache battery and the high-efficiency Igaro devices. There are many others.

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Tigerbiten
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby Tigerbiten » 16 Feb 2020, 10:06pm

It's taken me a few years to finalize my setup, it's not the cheapest, but covers most situations.

SON XS-M dynamo -> B&M eWerks -> B&M cache battery -> Garmin.
Small solar panel -> cache battery or Kindle.
Mains charger and spare cache battery.

The hub dynamo keeps the Garmin powered on the move therefore I only need to recharge it once every few months.
The B&M cache battery is small but waterproof.
If needed I can grab a charge for the Kindle off it but that's about it.
My cycling day tends to be only 8->3, so plenty of time in the afternoon to grab electrons.
If the weather is reasonably then I keep the Kindle topped up from the solar panel.
Because I don't need a lot of power, I have gone weeks without needing to use the mains charger, but it's there just in case.
But if I needed to power anything else I would probably need to upgrade something in my setup.

Luck ........ :D

Jdsk
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby Jdsk » 17 Feb 2020, 8:19am

Thanks

Jonathan

tim_f
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby tim_f » 17 Feb 2020, 8:23am

Camping in France I have got by fine by just plugging in a mains charger to a USB battery pack in toilet block to a shaver socket.

Better to have a couple of medium sized ones rather than one big ones.

With USB C fast charging can get a lot of power in a short period.

Label the battery pack and charger with name and phone number.

Yes there is a a risk of theft, but they are cheap.... and easy to buy another one in a large french supermarket.

I think the deluxe SON Dynamo gives less current than the standard SON version at lower speeds. This is fine to power a USB headlight. But is not optimal for a touring cyclist wanting to power USB devices via a rectifier.

Depending on how long you cycle every day and your speed may not 'harvest' a lot of power, even with the standard SON dynamo.

If you have a modern fast charging phone, simplest way if so ask to plug it in when you stop in a cafe.

PH
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby PH » 17 Feb 2020, 11:29am

Samuel D wrote:In a 700C wheel, the SONdelux is fine for lights unless you expect to ride at very slow speeds, but it wouldn’t be my choice for charging devices while touring. The SON 28 would be better for that because it delivers more power at modest speeds.

This is worth repeating, I'm surprised any bike shop selling them doesn't know this.
I have three dynamo wheels, SON, SP and Shimano, they all work fine and I've toured on two of them.
I also have the original igaro charger, D1, which works fine on all three of them.
There is something pleasing about producing your own power needs, but in reality I hardly ever use it. I have two fag packet sized power banks and a four way charger, if I leave home with everything charged it's enough for 4 - 5 days, but rather than run everything down and need a big charge I'll top up as I go, an hour at lunch or a couple of hours in the evening is enough, I don't need to leave anything charging overnight.

willem jongman
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby willem jongman » 17 Feb 2020, 11:52am

I agree. The Sondelux (i.e. what was originally the version for 20 inch wheels) is fine with modern Led lights. My wife has one, and with a modern Son led headlicht there is no problem, even at low speeds. The beauty is lower drag and less resonance. However, I would not ever use it to charge unless your power requirements are very modest, in which case cutting down even more on consumption and battery packs are good alternatives unless you are away from power sources. If you want to charge a lot, there is no substitute for a generator for 28 inch wheels like the Son28, SP, most Shimano hubs or whatever. They all produce about the same, though drag, quality, and price may be different.
Last edited by willem jongman on 17 Feb 2020, 1:53pm, edited 2 times in total.

zenitb
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby zenitb » 17 Feb 2020, 1:44pm

Touring in France my SP hub dynamo running through the Busch und Muller Luxos U could charge my Samsung galaxy from near zero to 50% in two hours cycling. This is in "aeroplane mode" with everything shut down except for the Adroid Orux Maps navigation app.

So essentially I could be self-sufficient on phone charging as long as I didnt do too much phone browsing at the campsite.

I had the same problem others have reported with my Garmin Touring on dynamo USB power..with it restting and forgetting the route when i stopped at junctions- so i threw it into the bottom of the barbag and used the phone for the whole tour. Will have to try the "buffer battery" approach others have suggested though since the garmin was nice when actually running on dynamo..with the screen constantly illuminated.

I took a power brick and did use it occaisionally - for extended evening "surfing"/social networking - but never really HAD to use it. Its nice being "off grid" ..at least for basics like navigation..so I would recommend a dynamo->usb->phone setup like the Luxos for worry free touring..

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andrew_s
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby andrew_s » 17 Feb 2020, 6:04pm

SON 28 vs Sondelux:

Schmidt's version of the truth is here.

If you look at the upper red & yellow curves on the 3rd graph, you can see that at likely touring speeds of 15 - 30 km/h, there's 3 to 3.5 km/h (2 mph) difference between the two - i.e. you get the same output with a SON28 at 20 km/h (12.5 mph) as you do with a Sondelux at 23.5 km/h (14.5 mph).

You can then translate that into charging current using curves like those on the Igaro site.
If you're riding at 23.5 km/h with a SON 28, you get 0.67 A (taking the orange Klite line as being representative of a generic charger), but if you've got a Sondelux instead, you get the current shown against 20 km/h, which is 0.55 A.

On the face of it, that would mean that you've got to ride 0.67/0.55 = 1.2 times as far to fully charge the same device using a charger like the Klite with a Sondelux than you would with a SON 28.
That does assume that what you are charging always makes full use of the current available to it. This isn't the case, so the 1.2 times is likely to be a worst case for the same charger.

Note that in the case of SP dynamos, you can get "PD" hubs or "SD" hubs. The PD hubs are equivalent to SON 28, and the SD hubs are equivalent to Sondelux (more or less).
Last edited by andrew_s on 18 Feb 2020, 4:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tompsk
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Re: Charging devies on tour - Schmidt SON Delux Front Dynamo Hub

Postby Tompsk » 18 Feb 2020, 8:16am

andrew_s wrote:SON 28 vs Sondelux:

Schmidt's version of the truth is here.

If you look at the upper red & yellow curves on the 3rd graph, you can see that at likely touring speeds of 15 - 30 km/h, there's 3 to 3.5 km/h (2 mph) difference between the two - i.e. you get the same output with a SON28 at 20 km/h (12.5 mph) as you do with a Sondelux at 23.5 km/h (14.5 mph).

You can then translate that into charging current using curves like those on the Igaro site.
If you're riding at 23.5 km/h with a SON 28, you get 6.7 A (taking the orange Klite line as being representative of a generic charger), but if you've got a Sondelux instead, you get the current shown against 20 km/h, which is 5.5 A.

On the face of it, that would mean that you've got to ride 6.7/5.5 = 1.2 times as far to fully charge the same device using a charger like the Klite with a Sondelux than you would with a SON 28.
That does assume that what you are charging always makes full use of the current available to it. This isn't the case, so the 1.2 times is likely to be a worst case for the same charger.

Note that in the case of SP dynamos, you can get "PD" hubs or "SD" hubs. The PD hubs are equivalent to SON 28, and the SD hubs are equivalent to Sondelux (more or less).


Not sure if you mean Watts or Volts in your figures above as I've not heard that any bicycle dynohub can produce 5.5 or 6.7 Amps at sensible speeds. I do see what you are saying though but as output (and converting that to a steady voltage for usb charging) is very non linear at low speeds a few km/h either way can make a huge difference. YMMV applies here me thinks :-)